How Long Will BM Last at this rate?????

[Vision]

Whereas spending millions does not guarantee success, I would be interested to know how much Wigan have spent since being promoted in 2005. They get smaller crowds than us yet they have reached a cup final. Fulham are also a similarly sized club yet they too have reached a cup final in recent years. What are they doing right that we can not understand or, as a minimum, aspire to?

By running at a massive loss but with owners prepared to cover that loss. Problem comes if/when they are no longer able/willing to do so as we eventually found out with Madejski.

Wigan have been pretty astute in the transfer market too, buying some relative unknowns and then selling them for a huge profit after a season or two. However even with all that, they've been fighting relegation to pretty much the last day of the season every year bar their first.

I'm not sure what proven Premiership players Norwich have added since their promotion and they pretty much kept most of the squad that saw them promoted in 2nd place. Despite losing their talismanic manager they seem to be doing alright. I'm sure McD and the club looked at them as a guide for how it could be done rather than QPR who to a more extreme degree tried to buy their safety. Personally I think where we've gone wrong though is that unlike Norwich and Swansea from last season our key players we've kept faith with were age-wise probably at their peak last season. Other sides had players that were either in the middle of their peak career phase or at least approaching it whilst for us it's a case of young promising talent thats not quite there yet or those past their peak.
Honestly is there anyone in our team that you could say were in the peak of their career? Ironically you'd probably come up with Guthrie and the Pog.

Thing is though, as I've said many times there is no real blueprint for success but you have to do what you think best suits your club's resources and ethos. Stoke play pretty antiquated football from an aesthetic point of view yet are the current form team in the League and look pretty settled. The aforementioned Norwich are hardly Barcelona and are doing ok. On the flipside Wigan and Swansea are surviving by playing a more pleasing style and despite accepting that they will usually lose key players at the end of the season. There are various ways of acheiving it but even then if you're a club of a certain size/resource you're still really only a couple of poor signings/bad decisions away from relegation.

There's also a bigger picture at stake here too for me. Much as I thought we didn't look at the bigger picture as a club when removing Rodgers, I think we have to look beyond the current results when assessing what is best for Reading FC in the future. We currently have a pretty thriving Academy set up which could pay dividends for us in the future if the transition from youth to 1st team is handled correctly. The question for me is, whether we survive this season or go down, in the next couple of years what type of club are we going to be and what manager is the most likely to aid us in getting us to that place. The one significant point about the clubs mentioned of similiar size to us that have achieved successive periods of Premiership football is that none of them seem to have been able to incorporate their own academy players into regular 1st team players. Stoke,Norwich,Fulham,Wigan? Can't recall many,if any coming through the ranks there.

I've digressed a bit (a lot) here and it's probably more about what I personally want to see us achieving as a club rather than what is best at this precise moment in time.(I might try and dig up an old thread on that subject from last year which might make for an interesting read given where we are now) For me that's the criteria that would influence whether I wanted McD to stay or go.

[Royal Rother]

Thing is with the Academy - it's been a slowly developing story of success and to me, ultimate success and self-sufficiency for the club relies on its success.

But for it to really succeed the players coming through have to be given an opportunity to play for the 1st team. The quality of our Academy youngsters has improved massively over the last 10 years, but most of them are probably not going to be good enough to become established PL players. 5 years ago they were not good enough to become established Championship players. 10 years ago they were not good enough to become established pros.

By investing in the Academy and nurturing / helping youngsters get careers at whatever level they can we have gradually established a good reputation, so that word has spread and the quality (and quantity) who stick with us rather than moving to QPR, Southampton, Charlton or whoever has improved.

By investing multi-millions more in further improving the Academy facilities and coaching that trend will continue for the next decade.

THAT'S the way to give the best possible chance of long-term success. The best way to scupper that whole potential is to overspend on trying to maintain PL status meaning that, if we get relegated, the money is no longer available to develop the Academy.

[Maguire]

I've digressed a bit (a lot) here and it's probably more about what I personally want to see us achieving as a club rather than what is best at this precise moment in time.(I might try and dig up an old thread on that subject from last year which might make for an interesting read given where we are now) For me that's the criteria that would influence whether I wanted McD to stay or go.

I agree you need to play the long game (if that's what you're saying) but you don't appear to have reached a conclusion here.

[Terminal Boardom]

When talking of Academies, Southampton have produced really high quality players over a number of years. Palace too always seem to unearth a gem or two every season or so. Does Karacan fall into that bracket? Not in my opinion. He is good but nothing special. The same applies to HRK. Pearce? If he had a bit of pace he could walk into a top 10 side. McCarthy is quality and I would expect him to move on to bigger and better things.

Whereas Southampton and Palace, to give 2 examples, regularly throw youngsters in at the deep end, Reading only do it when they have no other option. Until this changes, the Academy will continue to unearth the odd gem but not on a regular basis.

The earlier comment about Coppells side in 2006 is a fair one but there is no way on earth that the current crop would last 5 minutes against the 2006 vintage.

BMcD has worked a miracle since taking over from BR but is this a bridge too far? He must have known in the summer that they style of football that won the championship, coupled with the quality of the squad, was never going to cut the mustard in the Prem. Yet what were the acquisitions? Pog and Guthrie look like expensive mistakes. McCleary certainly has promise. Gunter has struggled. The only one who has performed to a high standard is Nicky Shorey.

[SPARTA]

Whereas Southampton and Palace, to give 2 examples, regularly throw youngsters in at the deep end, Reading only do it when they have no other option. Until this changes, the Academy will continue to unearth the odd gem but not on a regular basis.

And that's the difference in my opinion. Man City wanted Obita but he chose us. He's clearly got a lot going for him but we rarely through these kids in and play them, but had Obita been at Palace or Southampton then he would have 30 games under his belt now, and had he shone, being linked with Prem sides for big money. Same can be said for the free-scoring Samuel.

[Plymouth_Royal]

Whereas spending millions does not guarantee success, I would be interested to know how much Wigan have spent since being promoted in 2005. They get smaller crowds than us yet they have reached a cup final. Fulham are also a similarly sized club yet they too have reached a cup final in recent years. What are they doing right that we can not understand or, as a minimum, aspire to?

Terminal .. No agree it doesn't guarantee success ...but equally spending little has shown it doesn't guarantee either....or is it a case that enough was spent in summer but on the wrong players?? ..how much did BM want Pog or was it a whim of AZ ?

BM is rolled out to say "every player I wanted, I got" ...if that is the honest truth then I guess BMs eye for a player that will improve the team/squad, has to be called into question....

Bm also said that any player suggested to him he will have the final say.

[Plymouth_Royal]

Thing is with the Academy - it's been a slowly developing story of success and to me, ultimate success and self-sufficiency for the club relies on its success.

But for it to really succeed the players coming through have to be given an opportunity to play for the 1st team. The quality of our Academy youngsters has improved massively over the last 10 years, but most of them are probably not going to be good enough to become established PL players. 5 years ago they were not good enough to become established Championship players. 10 years ago they were not good enough to become established pros.

By investing in the Academy and nurturing / helping youngsters get careers at whatever level they can we have gradually established a good reputation, so that word has spread and the quality (and quantity) who stick with us rather than moving to QPR, Southampton, Charlton or whoever has improved.

By investing multi-millions more in further improving the Academy facilities and coaching that trend will continue for the next decade.

THAT'S the way to give the best possible chance of long-term success. The best way to scupper that whole potential is to overspend on trying to maintain PL status meaning that, if we get relegated, the money is no longer available to develop the Academy.

I agree about our Academy becoming a developing success story but if we are to become self sufficient we need to look at how Arsenal have done it. Every Arsenal age group plays the same style of football, which makes the transition from youth to 1st more acheivable.

We on the other hand seem to have very contrasting styles. U18s and below seem to play a very exiciting, passing and slightly direct style. the U21s are more direct and the 1st team are hoof merchants.

we need consistency to reap the rewards of the hard work we have done at youth level.

[Terminal Boardom]

Thing is with the Academy - it's been a slowly developing story of success and to me, ultimate success and self-sufficiency for the club relies on its success.

But for it to really succeed the players coming through have to be given an opportunity to play for the 1st team. The quality of our Academy youngsters has improved massively over the last 10 years, but most of them are probably not going to be good enough to become established PL players. 5 years ago they were not good enough to become established Championship players. 10 years ago they were not good enough to become established pros.

By investing in the Academy and nurturing / helping youngsters get careers at whatever level they can we have gradually established a good reputation, so that word has spread and the quality (and quantity) who stick with us rather than moving to QPR, Southampton, Charlton or whoever has improved.

By investing multi-millions more in further improving the Academy facilities and coaching that trend will continue for the next decade.

THAT'S the way to give the best possible chance of long-term success. The best way to scupper that whole potential is to overspend on trying to maintain PL status meaning that, if we get relegated, the money is no longer available to develop the Academy.

I agree about our Academy becoming a developing success story but if we are to become self sufficient we need to look at how Arsenal have done it. Every Arsenal age group plays the same style of football, which makes the transition from youth to 1st more acheivable.

We on the other hand seem to have very contrasting styles. U18s and below seem to play a very exiciting, passing and slightly direct style. the U21s are more direct and the 1st team are hoof merchants.

we need consistency to reap the rewards of the hard work we have done at youth level.

This disparity between the style of football played between the Academy and first team is alarming and something has to change. I totally agree with the Arsenal analogy and look at the players that have come through their system. Obviously, they have supplemented them with signings from elsewhere but there is a clear and defined route into the first team. We only do it when there is no option. I remember years back when one of the old fanzines, may have been Elm Park Disease, commented that you wait for years for a youth player to get a chance then 3 come along all at once. They were Scott Taylor, Stuart Lovell and Adie Williams. They weren't bad at all were they! Quite frankly, when it comes to the way the club is run and structured...

http://youtu.be/ohRbJJohv6Y

[Barry the bird boggler]

Brian will still be manager at the end of the season at which time we'll be behind him again either because we know he can do it in Division 2 or because he's just led the club to one of the most spectacular survival campaigns anyone's ever seen.

[Royalwaster]

Thing is with the Academy - it's been a slowly developing story of success and to me, ultimate success and self-sufficiency for the club relies on its success.

But for it to really succeed the players coming through have to be given an opportunity to play for the 1st team. The quality of our Academy youngsters has improved massively over the last 10 years, but most of them are probably not going to be good enough to become established PL players. 5 years ago they were not good enough to become established Championship players. 10 years ago they were not good enough to become established pros.

By investing in the Academy and nurturing / helping youngsters get careers at whatever level they can we have gradually established a good reputation, so that word has spread and the quality (and quantity) who stick with us rather than moving to QPR, Southampton, Charlton or whoever has improved.

By investing multi-millions more in further improving the Academy facilities and coaching that trend will continue for the next decade.

THAT'S the way to give the best possible chance of long-term success. The best way to scupper that whole potential is to overspend on trying to maintain PL status meaning that, if we get relegated, the money is no longer available to develop the Academy.

I agree about our Academy becoming a developing success story but if we are to become self sufficient we need to look at how Arsenal have done it. Every Arsenal age group plays the same style of football, which makes the transition from youth to 1st more acheivable.

We on the other hand seem to have very contrasting styles. U18s and below seem to play a very exiciting, passing and slightly direct style. the U21s are more direct and the 1st team are hoof merchants.

we need consistency to reap the rewards of the hard work we have done at youth level.

Direct football is basically the same as hoof ball - hoof ball is just what happens when it doesn't work well ...

[Extended-Phenotype]

It doesn't matter that we are losing like f/ckstains now. Think of where we have come. A few years ago we were losing to teams like Rochdale and Barnet. Now we are losing to Aston Villa and Sunderland.

So no complaining, now.

[Royal Rother]

I remember years back when one of the old fanzines, may have been Elm Park Disease, commented that you wait for years for a youth player to get a chance then 3 come along all at once. They were Scott Taylor, Stuart Lovell and Adie Williams. They weren't bad at all were they!

Good yes, but even then, none of them became established PL players.

Now we are getting 2 or 3 of that quality pretty much every year. They're just not getting a chance because we are playing at a higher level and (generally) have greater resources to buy in. That's a shame I think as I'd love to see them blooded here.

For me, the excitement and pride gained from seeing the 3 you've mentioned break through, plus James Lambert a few years later, outweighs anything that the PL has to offer. Great days.

Although I don't go to games anymore I am pretty loyal and protective of what the club is doing but as of now I would rather see us mid-table in the Championship playing entertaining football with a team made up of the likes of McArthy, Obita, Samuel, Ugwu, Arnold, Karacan, HRK, Pearce, Edwards, Hector et al than mid-table in the PL with a squad of players bought in.

With that lot in the team I might even be tempted go to a few games...

[jellytot]

I remember years back when one of the old fanzines, may have been Elm Park Disease, commented that you wait for years for a youth player to get a chance then 3 come along all at once. They were Scott Taylor, Stuart Lovell and Adie Williams. They weren't bad at all were they!

Good yes, but even then, none of them became established PL players.

Now we are getting 2 or 3 of that quality pretty much every year. They're just not getting a chance because we are playing at a higher level and (generally) have greater resources to buy in. That's a shame I think as I'd love to see them blooded here.

For me, the excitement and pride gained from seeing the 3 you've mentioned break through, plus James Lambert a few years later, outweighs anything that the PL has to offer. Great days.

Although I don't go to games anymore I am pretty loyal and protective of what the club is doing but as of now I would rather see us mid-table in the Championship playing entertaining football with a team made up of the likes of McArthy, Obita, Samuel, Ugwu, Arnold, Karacan, HRK, Pearce, Edwards, Hector et al than mid-table in the PL with a squad of players bought in.

With that lot in the team I might even be tempted go to a few games...

Agreed I would say that if our relegation becomes certain in January I would rather blood the youngsters. To be honest we have not played very good football under Brian. We got the results last season more through luck at times. We have not improved the quality of the team very much. Others have! We probably have a chance of getting a result against West Ham or Swansea but unlikely to get anything against Arsenal, Spurs or Chelsea (is it?) So if we are very lucky we will be on 13 points at best in early January. To have any chance we would need to spend significantly in January if we want to try and stay up.. We would probably need a min of 25 points from the last 15 games or so.. Not looking likely. Even if we decide to spend 20 million. The players are out there if we can find them and on the cheap!! Look at Swansea's signings and Evertons!

I would love to see us go down playing football and having a go rather than this awful slow and boring death we have to watch!

[Alexander Litvinenko]

The only risk comes that if the youngsters are on the receiving end of a real tonking it might set their development back significantly.

[Royal Rother]

If they are going to make it as professional footballers they are going to have to take a few good ton kings along the way.

[SPARTA]

The only risk comes that if the youngsters are on the receiving end of a real tonking it might set their development back significantly.

At this level, sure, but we never blood youngsters (give them a run in the side) even back in the first division. We should do! They're fearless and will run and run and the likes of Samuel and Obita would give teams all sorts of trouble. Certainly more so than the inconsistent Kebe's and McAnuff's of the world.

[royal_cornwall]

My Dad is a Wolves fan so I have seen a fair bit of Hoddle from when he was manager there.

He is not as great a manager as his reputation suggests. His brand of football is tedious sideways football. Imagine a whole pitch of James Harpers and that is how he wants to play football.

Trust me, Hoddle is not the answer.

Past manager of England. Played some of the best football ive seen from England. Both tactically and technically astute. Yeah why the Feck would we want him here.

[creative_username_1]

The only risk comes that if the youngsters are on the receiving end of a real tonking it might set their development back significantly.

This seems to get bandied about as if it's common knowledge and correct.

[SPARTA]

The only risk comes that if the youngsters are on the receiving end of a real tonking it might set their development back significantly.

This seems to get bandied about as if it's common knowledge and correct.

Agreed. Palace have been on the wrong end of a fair few spankings in recent years, as have Southampton, especially a recent drop from PL to L1, and yet both consistently blood quality youngsters and sell on for big profits. Those defeats didn't hurt anyone.

[Maguire]

he likes of Samuel and Obita would give teams all sorts of trouble. Certainly more so than the inconsistent Kebe's and McAnuff's of the world.

Based on what evidence.

I think this is total bullshit, no offence