How Long Will BM Last at this rate?????

[melonhead]

was Alf's first goal hand-ball

no

When we played Everton as HB saidthey were all over us and the same v West Brom.

think all over us is a bit of an over statement tbf
everton had a decent first half, and looked the better team, they had some chances which we dealt with, or they missed

[Ian Royal]

Both Guthrie and McAnuff were available for central roles.
Pog was available for the lone role.

guthrie wasnt.
the one person with the passing ability to make that system work.

as soon as he was back, and hapy again. he was in the squad, and the system was changed

Guthrie was only "injured" for Fulham, QPR, Norwich, Everton, Wigan and Villa.

We had at least three midfielders available, not including Gunnarsson, for West Brom, Newcastle, Swansea, Man Utd, & Saints. I rather suspect Guthrie wouldn't have had a problem travelling to Sunderland if he'd actually been used during our games against Utd and Saints rather than left on the bench. So you can probably add Sunderland and Arsenal to the list as well.

Which makes it more than half the games we switched back to 4-4-2 where we had the resources to play 4-5-1. Not including Gunnarsson, who made it onto the bench twice. Not including playing McAnuff in central midfield, which we'd done before and did in our last game.

Our options were limited, but 4-4-2 was not our only option and we could have played 4-5-1 if McDermott wanted us to. That brendy, is a fact, our matchday squads prove it.

[Woodcote Royal]

Southampton getting a 0-0 draw against a team we managed to beat (having been totally outplayed for the first 45 minutes I might add) just a few days after changing their manager has no bearing on where we would or wouldn't be now if we'd given McDermott the boot.

This is a recurring theme, HB, in your warped assessment process.

Any ounce of luck that comes our way devalues our success but any luck that goes against us is never mentioned again.

So, on the day Everton missed a number of chances and we took ours, surprise surprise!!! we won This happens a lot in football and is often the key reason for one team beating another. In fact, most observers, perish the thought, would see this as one team beating another not due to luck but because they played a better game of football. This is because to win a game one team has to put the ball in the net more times than their opponents whilst any number of near misses has no value whatsoever.

On the other hand, being denied victory because a referee allowed an equalizing goal to stand when it was clearly and deliberately put into the net by a players hand would be deemed, by most of those with no hidden agenda, to be a case of bad luck for the team who should have walked away with 3pts.

The same could be said regarding Chelsea's offside goal and Man City injury time winner. Those 4pts alone would have put a nice dent in our twat factors case so no prizes for guessing why they always get glossed over.

I think you have got a bit of an inferiority complex about RFC,Woodcote,feeling that everything goes against us

This is another case where you have posted a nonsense response because you either, couldn't be arsed to properly read what I posted or, you really aren't very bright

Whilst I'm amongst what is at least a substantial minority who feel smaller clubs often get a raw deal when up against bigger rivals, the main thrust of my post was that for every case it could be said fortune was on our side when winning a particular match there has been at least one other when bad luck has cost us points.

Why does pointing this out amount to me having a complex regarding poor luck on our part

I'll answer my own question. It's because those of you who had us relegated weeks ago and are now bricking it for fear we might survive are only interested in any perceived good fortune that, in your eyes, gained us more points than we deserved. The last thing you need is someone having the temerity to draw attention 4pts we lost through bad fortune thus undermining your case, therefore, any such person must have a complex.

[Victor Meldrew]

[
In answer to Woodcote
It's probably because I'm not very bright,a compulsory factor for anybody spending as much time as a lot of us do on a football club website arguing with complete strrangers,some of whom hardly ever even go to matches.
You fail to mention the flukey 3 points that we got against West Brom and that we score important goals in added time just like Man City did against us so like most of us you use the convenient part of an argument that suits but that happens if you are not very bright.

Incidentally what you and your not very bright buddy melonhead never can grasp is that any criticism (and I may be speaking for cmonurz and Hoop Blah here but they are bright enough to speak for themselves) occurs because we want the best for our club and this is a forum designed to discuss decisions taken by our club that I suggest we care about much more than Madejski,any Russian or McDermott or players who are all in it just for the money whereas we fans were here long before them and will be here long after they have moved on.

[Woodcote Royal]

So now our win against West Brom was "very flukey"

I had seen the "not very bright" option as the least likely but now I'm starting to wonder

As I posted before, you are only interested in any perceived good fortune the opposite merely weakens your case and, as such, being right is clearly more important to some of you than avoiding relegation.

Furthermore, we all know what to expect should we stay up. It won't be that any of you were wrong (as some of you have been for season after tedious season ) it will be because we somehow got "lucky" Some of us have been reading the same nonsense for a very long time.

I rest my case

[Millsy]

What's wrong with me I agree with WR

It has to be said this season was very unlucky for us. Feds' mistakes back to back, then the Guthrie situation, the bizarre arsenal game all played a big factor. Thats not even half the story. The number of times horrific decisions have gone against us costing us vital points seriously makes me believe that either there's outright corruption in the Prem or, more likely, there's at the very least a subconscious desire on the part of officials to side with the big rich powerful clubs who they know they will be seeing for years to come rather than little Reading, who'll likely only be a short term visitor. Mess up against Chelsea, you'll be hated and berated for years. Mess up against little Reading and you may get a mention in the chronicle. Yes things are meant to even themselves out but they is far haven't.

I don't see how two legitimate and hard fought and very well deserved comebacks are in any way lucky.

I don't know the origin of this debate or what the agendas are as I've not read back far enough.

As far as I'm concerned we need to stick with King Brian and I hold no grudges for us not spending big in the summer, whether we go down or not. We've been unlucky to a degree.

[Hoop Blah]

Where have you got this mythical £40m from though?

We needed a bit more quality, not a whole squad. I'm sure McDermott could've spent a bit more astutely enough to make enough of an impact on the fine lines between success and failure we saw earlier in the season.

only if you believe he had more than the money he spent available
which i dont, as you know, due to him repeatedly saying he had a budget and spent it all.



for 5 million quid, to get the 6 players in that he did is nothing short of genius
imo

I meant he could've spent a bit more money (ie in addition to that he already did) to get what we needed if he spent it well.

He didn't need to spend £40m on a whole new team, just one or two more significant signings to improve on the first team not just be similar quality options. Add those key players and get the change in tactics and approach right and we'd have been more competitive.

[Hoop Blah]

guthrie wasnt.
the one person with the passing ability to make that system work.

as soon as he was back, and hapy again. he was in the squad, and the system was changed

Guthrie was available, training and on the bench before he got a look in again.

It appears the reason he didn't go to Sunderland was probably because of the way he was treated on his return to the squad. He wasn't used away at Southampton because McDermott said he wasn't fit enough for a 10 minute run out, unlike other players who've come straight back in to the side after similar lay offs.

It took another 2 or 3 games for McDermott to change things around.

[cmonurz]

He didn't need to spend £40m on a whole new team, just one or two more significant signings to improve on the first team not just be similar quality options. Add those key players and get the change in tactics and approach right and we'd have been more competitive.

^This.

I've never advocated buying a whole new squad, and brendy I can't find anything in your posts that explains why you feel that we either take the approach we have this season (spend little) or take the QPR approach and buy everyone and their dog.

2 or 3 quality signings in the right positions might have made all the difference, and I can't see that they would have led to financial armageddon.

[Hoop Blah]

Southampton getting a 0-0 draw against a team we managed to beat (having been totally outplayed for the first 45 minutes I might add) just a few days after changing their manager has no bearing on where we would or wouldn't be now if we'd given McDermott the boot.

This is a recurring theme, HB, in your warped assessment process.

Any ounce of luck that comes our way devalues our success but any luck that goes against us is never mentioned again.

So, on the day Everton missed a number of chances and we took ours, surprise surprise!!! we won This happens a lot in football and is often the key reason for one team beating another. In fact, most observers, perish the thought, would see this as one team beating another not due to luck but because they played a better game of football. This is because to win a game one team has to put the ball in the net more times than their opponents whilst any number of near misses has no value whatsoever.

On the other hand, being denied victory because a referee allows an equalizing goal to stand when it was clearly and deliberately put into the net by a players hand would be deemed, by most of those with no hidden agenda, to be a case of bad luck for the team who should have walked away with 3pts.

The same could be said regarding Chelsea's offside goal and Man City injury time winner. Those 4pts alone would have put a nice dent in our twat factors case so no prizes for guessing why they always get glossed over.

No warped assessment here WR, I just firmly believe that ultimately results follow performances and the sides that create the better opportunities, and obviously take a decent proportion of them, will eventually succeed in the long term.

We've had some good fortune to see us through in recent games which is great (if you don't think we got the rub of the green with our two goals at Newcastle then I'd suggest your view is a little warped) and I'd accept that we've had some go against us at times (Ba's goal against us in the home game an obvious example). The difference is that I want my team to defend better to cut out the effects of that luck (both Newcastle goals at home should've been defended better) whilst at the other end I don't want our success to rely on luck.

Staying in games through good defending, being well organised or outstanding individual performances is part of being a good team. Rely on the opposition not taking their chances is handing control of your destiny to external forces and that's the hallmark of a poor side and one destined for relegation.

[bcubed]

What's wrong with me I agree with WR

It has to be said this season was very unlucky for us. Feds' mistakes back to back, then the Guthrie situation, the bizarre arsenal game all played a big factor. Thats not even half the story. The number of times horrific decisions have gone against us costing us vital points seriously makes me believe that either there's outright corruption in the Prem or, more likely, there's at the very least a subconscious desire on the part of officials to side with the big rich powerful clubs who they know they will be seeing for years to come rather than little Reading, who'll likely only be a short term visitor. Mess up against Chelsea, you'll be hated and berated for years. Mess up against little Reading and you may get a mention in the chronicle. Yes things are meant to even themselves out but they is far haven't.

I don't see how two legitimate and hard fought and very well deserved comebacks are in any way lucky.

I don't know the origin of this debate or what the agendas are as I've not read back far enough.

As far as I'm concerned we need to stick with King Brian and I hold no grudges for us not spending big in the summer, whether we go down or not. We've been unlucky to a degree.

yeh i agree with him too!

Flukey? do me a favour
That was a magnificent last ten minutes, as good as it gets and thoroughly deserved for staying in the game and for some excellent play and finishing

[Hoop Blah]

So now our win against West Brom was "very flukey"

I had seen the "not very bright" option as the least likely but now I'm starting to wonder

As I posted before, you are only interested in any perceived good fortune the opposite merely weakens your case and, as such, being right is clearly more important to some of you than avoiding relegation.

Furthermore, we all know what to expect should we stay up. It won't be that any of you were wrong (as some of you have been for season after tedious season ) it will be because we somehow got "lucky" Some of us have been reading the same nonsense for a very long time.

I rest my case

Much like the Everton, Newcastle and Man City games we, by virtue of our performance, could easily have been dead and buried if West Brom hadn't wasted several very good opportunities to score.

To then score 3 goals in such a short space of time is very rare. Our scoring 3 goals isn't lucky, it was through good play and hard endeavour, but to do that in the Premier League is just not the way to go about winning games on a regular basis which is what we should be looking to do.

As I said above, I want us to be on control of our destiny and not rely on extreme circumstances to nick points at the death.

[Hoop Blah]

What's wrong with me I agree with WR

It has to be said this season was very unlucky for us. Feds' mistakes back to back, then the Guthrie situation, the bizarre arsenal game all played a big factor. Thats not even half the story. The number of times horrific decisions have gone against us costing us vital points seriously makes me believe that either there's outright corruption in the Prem or, more likely, there's at the very least a subconscious desire on the part of officials to side with the big rich powerful clubs who they know they will be seeing for years to come rather than little Reading, who'll likely only be a short term visitor. Mess up against Chelsea, you'll be hated and berated for years. Mess up against little Reading and you may get a mention in the chronicle. Yes things are meant to even themselves out but they is far haven't.

I don't see how two legitimate and hard fought and very well deserved comebacks are in any way lucky.

I don't know the origin of this debate or what the agendas are as I've not read back far enough.

As far as I'm concerned we need to stick with King Brian and I hold no grudges for us not spending big in the summer, whether we go down or not. We've been unlucky to a degree.

I agree we've had a few decisions go against us, but who hasn't?

It could be argued that we're lucky QPR haven't got more points and pulling away from us as they've had some pretty poor decisions go against them recently which have also cost them points. All teams get bad decisions, good teams play well enough to ensure those bad decisions aren't as crucial to the outcome. What we need to do is get to the point where we defend situations better and create and take chances more so that the dodgy decisions make it 2-1 not 0-1.

[Millsy]

So now our win against West Brom was "very flukey"

I had seen the "not very bright" option as the least likely but now I'm starting to wonder

As I posted before, you are only interested in any perceived good fortune the opposite merely weakens your case and, as such, being right is clearly more important to some of you than avoiding relegation.

Furthermore, we all know what to expect should we stay up. It won't be that any of you were wrong (as some of you have been for season after tedious season ) it will be because we somehow got "lucky" Some of us have been reading the same nonsense for a very long time.

I rest my case

Much like the Everton, Newcastle and Man City games we, by virtue of our performance, could easily have been dead and buried if West Brom hadn't wasted several very good opportunities to score.

To then score 3 goals in such a short space of time is very rare. Our scoring 3 goals isn't lucky, it was through good play and hard endeavour, but to do that in the Premier League is just not the way to go about winning games on a regular basis which is what we should be looking to do.

As I said above, I want us to be on control of our destiny and not rely on extreme circumstances to nick points at the death.

This is reasonable, but did we not do this all season last season to get up?

It's how we're here. Im not saying we didnt deserve to have been promoted. Of course we did. But if cheeky last minute goals got us up, that's likely to be the way we survive. Let's not forget that.

This wasn't our 106 team alas.

[Wimb]

Generally tend to agree with HB, urz etc but do see where 2WW and WR are coming from.

IMO, I think Brian has been admitting (in a non-direct way) since he took over that our squad has lacked the quality needed to dominate games; and with the budgets he's had to spend, I can't say I'm surprised at that.

What he has done has squeeze the life out of what quality we've had and boosted that by trying to instill a team spirit in the squad and feel good factor around the club. What that leaves us with is a team that can compete but still can't dominate a game at the top level.

How much our results are then down to 'luck' is entirely subjective, however take the result out of the equation, re-watch all of our games this season and you'd probably admit we've had just as much luck go our way as against us.

People can't one minute say Federici's errors are down to bad luck and then at the same time dismiss the good fortune in us scoring 3 times in 12 minutes against West Brom due to some mad defending from the visitors. Likewise, as much as Torres goal was offside, Chelsea had dominated us for a good portion of that match and Guthrie's free-kick had more than a bit of 'good fortune' about it thanks to Cech's woefull keeping. Likewise who's to say that Chelsea wouldn't have scored in those last few minutes anyway?

The Newcastle game was one we could and should have won but how many saw the handball in the stadium and how many of our players were rampantly appealing the decision? It was a bad bit of officiating and bad luck but those things just happen and I cannot for a second agree that there was any 'bias' about it.

My overall point here is that if you look at our wins over Everton, West Brom and Newcastle, if you replayed those games 100 times, more often than not the opposition would win them due to the number of chances they create in comparison with ours.

On the other hand, as others have said, that was the case for plenty of games last season and in the end our resilience combined with being effective with what few chances we did create, saw us win games and get promoted.

That strategy is a risky one but given our resources it's the only one we can employ.

To have refused to roll over and die is a huge testament to Brian and the players and while I think he's made a fair few mistakes, it's impossible to deny he's got the vast majority of key calls right in the past 3 years. The key area we can't fully judge him on is player recruitment because no matter what's been said in public, we really do not know what money he's had to spend, who was available and if they would have wanted to come here. What we can judge him on is how far he's taken the group he has to work with and I honestly don't think any other manager could have gotten more out of this group.

[Royal Rother]

As I said above, I want us to be on control of our destiny and not rely on extreme circumstances to nick points at the death.

This is reasonable, but did we not do this all season last season to get up?

It's how we're here. Im not saying we didnt deserve to have been promoted. Of course we did. But if cheeky last minute goals got us up, that's likely to be the way we survive. Let's not forget that.

Spot on.

But let's also not forget that the general tone of this board has always been that when we dominate a game but lose, it's because we're useless.

And when we appear 2nd best but grab late goals to take the points it's because we're lucky.

Some things will never change.

[BR2]

As I said above, I want us to be on control of our destiny and not rely on extreme circumstances to nick points at the death.

This is reasonable, but did we not do this all season last season to get up?

It's how we're here. Im not saying we didnt deserve to have been promoted. Of course we did. But if cheeky last minute goals got us up, that's likely to be the way we survive. Let's not forget that.

Spot on.

But let's also not forget that the general tone of this board has always been that when we dominate a game but lose, it's because we're useless.

And when we appear 2nd best but grab late goals to take the points it's because we're lucky.

Some things will never change.

When did we last dominate a game and lose?

[Hoop Blah]

Much like the Everton, Newcastle and Man City games we, by virtue of our performance, could easily have been dead and buried if West Brom hadn't wasted several very good opportunities to score.

To then score 3 goals in such a short space of time is very rare. Our scoring 3 goals isn't lucky, it was through good play and hard endeavour, but to do that in the Premier League is just not the way to go about winning games on a regular basis which is what we should be looking to do.

As I said above, I want us to be on control of our destiny and not rely on extreme circumstances to nick points at the death.

This is reasonable, but did we not do this all season last season to get up?

It's how we're here. Im not saying we didnt deserve to have been promoted. Of course we did. But if cheeky last minute goals got us up, that's likely to be the way we survive. Let's not forget that.

This wasn't our 106 team alas.

I agree it's similar to how we got by in a lot of key games last season (West Ham, Brighton and Southampton spring to mind) and our exceptional form last season was a little freakish and I've happily said before it, to an extent, disproved my theory because we had a number of games where we got away with a result our performances didn't necessarily warrent.

I'd put that down to relatively high quality players in key positions last season (Federici, Pearce/Gorks, Legiertwood/Karcan and Roberts/Le Fondre) that were able to make a real difference at key times to see us through those games. At this level we don't have that extra quality to consistently make the difference. Le Fondre will always be a goal threat to score important late goals (off the bench) if we can stay in a game, but it's that staying in the game bit that I guess we've found more difficult this season because teams are usually more clinical than in the Championship.

[BR2]

So now our win against West Brom was "very flukey"

I had seen the "not very bright" option as the least likely but now I'm starting to wonder

As I posted before, you are only interested in any perceived good fortune the opposite merely weakens your case and, as such, being right is clearly more important to some of you than avoiding relegation.

Furthermore, we all know what to expect should we stay up. It won't be that any of you were wrong (as some of you have been for season after tedious season ) it will be because we somehow got "lucky" Some of us have been reading the same nonsense for a very long time.

I rest my case

Interesting that you and Royal Rother who don't go to games appear to hold some of the strongest opinions-at least Ian Royal watches the WHOLE game online.
As Hoop Blah has posted much more clearly than me,it is a dangerous game to play attempting to win games with so little possession.

My "flukey" comment about the WBA game related to Fed's saves and Lukaku hitting the woodwork twice-we didn't hit the woodwork,their keeper didn't make great saves so on the balance of play our win was a bit flukey,lucky,fortunate or whatever term one might care to use.

Our common desire is to see Reading do well-yes,contrary to what you assume I am sure I speak for others in that we hold this wish.
My fear is that we won't win enough games with the quality of players that we have-you appear to hold a contrary view.
I feel that the club (encompassing the owner,chairman,Director of football,manager) haven't done enough in bringing sufficient players of the required quality to the club to give us a better chance of survival,at least so far they haven't but we can but hope with 7 days of the window to go.

[Silver Fox]

So now our win against West Brom was "very flukey"

Come on, it was a pure fluke that the WBA players ddin't realise a game lasts 90 minutes