No English player in starting 11

[maffff]

This was on the 20th August 2011 when we lost 2-1 at home to Barnsley and the line-up was: Federici, Gunnarsson, Harte, Pearce, Khumalo, Leigertwood, Karacan, McAnuff, Kebe, Hunt, Robson-Kanu. Furthermore, unlike Saturday, neither of the subs that came on (Church & Manset) were "english" either.

Pearce wasn't Irish back then? It was October 2011 he became Irish? Although I guess between 2008 and 2011 Pearce was Scottish, except he was Irish before then, when was was with their under 14's. He might have been English when he was born.

Robson Kanu turned welsh in 2010, so that's fair. He was English before though. Didn't he consider being Nigerian once too?

So basically. A lot of this is Bullshit.

Pearce is as Irish as I am. I could call myself Irish, Scottish or Spanish if I were a footballer.... I would have been Engish if I were good enough and Scottish or Irish if inadequate. I might have even managed to become Northern Irish on a technicality if I were complete sh/t.

[maffff]

On an aside, and for the oldies amongst us, wasn't Bobby Lenarduzzi our first overseas International?

Hugh Davey played for us and Ireland in the 1920s

Attilio Fresia?

[skipper]

Thanks all - I give up

No need to get upset!
It depends how you interpret nationality. If someone is born in england, but to foreign parents, what nationality does that make them? In sport one has to choose, in real life we're british, english isn't a separate nation from the rest of britain.

This is an interesting observation.

I was born in Germany, on a British Military base. Both parents, Reading born and raised. I didn't actually gain legitimate English nationality until I married - or so I was told by my registrar and the various legal bodies. I was seen as British, since I held a passport, but I was 100% by law and all that, that means British until I married.

Equally strange in the law - My children are not equal in the eyes of the law. First child was born out of wed lock, so doesn't have an equal right as his younger sister, who was born in wed lock.

Isn't the law a bunch of flippy floppy dicks?

Anyway, what does it matter? Didn't Arsenal do this a few years back? Didn't they like field 11 French players or something?

[ZacNaloen]

What right does your first child lack?

[SCIAG]

Doesn't this just show that our players are getting better and getting more exposure, so the ones of " indistinct" nationality are approached by minor nations whereas previously they would've been overlooked

In the very long term (15/20 years or more), yes.

The "very English" 05/06 side is actually no more English than this one. Hahnemann, Sonko, Ingimarsson, Convey and Doyle are all non-English (Murty is English but played for Scotland; Harper and Kitson turned down call ups for Ghana and Ireland).
By comparison, the foreigners in our recent XIs have been Federici, Kelly, Harte, Kebe and Pogrebnyak. The difference is that the likes of McAnuff, Leigertwood, McCleary, Pearce, and a few others who aren't in the squad right now like Roberts, Church and HRK are willing to play for other nations that they are eligible for. Long term it is likely that the same will be true of Morrison, Cummings and Karacan, maybe McCarthy too.

[maffff]

So we aren't good enough to have proper foreign foreigners?

[johnnym]

Your question was about there being no Englishmen in the starting eleven. It doesn't matter what country they qualified for to represent at international level, Pearce and Akpan are both English born and raised.

Terry Butcher was born in Singapore....did he play for Singapore then...?[/quote]

He was born in Singapore, so England wasn't his place of birth.[/quote]


That'll be Singapore of English sovereignty at the time of his birth non?

[3 veesinarow]

Car-crash, shocker, good phrases all, but this thread surely deserves the ultimate accolade...

S

[MartinRdg]

You can have more than one nationality. You can't play for more than one national side.

Not entirely true..

Indeed. Can only play for one senior national side I believe.

[Lovely hot donuts!]

This was on the 20th August 2011 when we lost 2-1 at home to Barnsley and the line-up was: Federici, Gunnarsson, Harte, Pearce, Khumalo, Leigertwood, Karacan, McAnuff, Kebe, Hunt, Robson-Kanu. Furthermore, unlike Saturday, neither of the subs that came on (Church & Manset) were "english" either.

Pearce wasn't Irish back then? It was October 2011 he became Irish? Although I guess between 2008 and 2011 Pearce was Scottish, except he was Irish before then, when was was with their under 14's. He might have been English when he was born.

Robson Kanu turned welsh in 2010, so that's fair. He was English before though. Didn't he consider being Nigerian once too?

So basically. A lot of this is Bullshit.

Pearce is as Irish as I am. I could call myself Irish, Scottish or Spanish if I were a footballer.... I would have been Engish if I were good enough and Scottish or Irish if inadequate. I might have even managed to become Northern Irish on a technicality if I were complete sh/t.

You are right, of course, that it shows the whole thing is sort of bullshit but still interesting to look at!
HRK is the one that ruins the whole thing because he made his Reading debut whilst playing for England at some youth level but is now welsh so oxf*rd knows whether to retrospectively call him welsh back then or say he switched?
As I say, I find it sort of interesting but FIFA rules do make nationality hilariously subjective! IMO, once you'e represented a country at some youth level you should be stuck with them for life! No switching, it should be which national team you feel you would naturally support.

[Franchise FC]

I do actually think it's an interesting point. If we take nationality as country the player has represented or would choose to represent then it might be the first time it's ever happened. (As for Akpan, he was born in Liverpool and not played for anyone but expressed his interest in playing for Nigeria)
However, there has been a rapid decline in the number of English players in the Reading team since the last time we were in the Premiership. If you think about the team that won the championship in 2005/06, there was six "english" players (Shorey, Harper, Sidwell, Little, Kitson, Lita) that were in the starting XI fairly regularly. (This number however is diminished by how little the team was changed around. This is six from 15 players who regularly played as opposed to the twenty-something in other years).

In the 2006/07 season there was really only five who were involved regularly due to Kitson spending most of the season out with injury. Also Dubbery was involved in a handful of games towards the end of the season but not enough to describe him as regular.

In 2007/08 we were back up to six "english" regulars (Shorey, Rosenior, Dubbery, Harper, Kitson, Lita).

In 2008/09 though we had a drop down to just three/ four (Dubbery, Rosenior, Harper and possibly Armstrong who played for both England U20s and Scotland B)

In 2009/10 it was up to four (Bertand, Griffin, Mills and Howard who wanted to play for Scotland but was sort of ineligible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Howard_(footballer)#International_career) and had played for England at youth level)

In 2010/11 it was just three (Griffin, Mills, Howard)

Last season it was still three (Cummings, J. Mills, Le Fondre)

This season, however, there has been just the one (Shorey).

So, as much as everyone else has been dismissive, I do think it's an interesting trend. I've skimmed through line-ups of the last few years and I think this could be the first time it's happened but as you can see, this point has been inevitable.


NB: I've classed "regular" as having started at least a third of games.

How can you include Le Fondre last season but not this - he's playing as regularly this season

[Lovely hot donuts!]

I do actually think it's an interesting point. If we take nationality as country the player has represented or would choose to represent then it might be the first time it's ever happened. (As for Akpan, he was born in Liverpool and not played for anyone but expressed his interest in playing for Nigeria)
However, there has been a rapid decline in the number of English players in the Reading team since the last time we were in the Premiership. If you think about the team that won the championship in 2005/06, there was six "english" players (Shorey, Harper, Sidwell, Little, Kitson, Lita) that were in the starting XI fairly regularly. (This number however is diminished by how little the team was changed around. This is six from 15 players who regularly played as opposed to the twenty-something in other years).

In the 2006/07 season there was really only five who were involved regularly due to Kitson spending most of the season out with injury. Also Dubbery was involved in a handful of games towards the end of the season but not enough to describe him as regular.

In 2007/08 we were back up to six "english" regulars (Shorey, Rosenior, Dubbery, Harper, Kitson, Lita).

In 2008/09 though we had a drop down to just three/ four (Dubbery, Rosenior, Harper and possibly Armstrong who played for both England U20s and Scotland B)

In 2009/10 it was up to four (Bertand, Griffin, Mills and Howard who wanted to play for Scotland but was sort of ineligible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Howard_(footballer)#International_career) and had played for England at youth level)

In 2010/11 it was just three (Griffin, Mills, Howard)

Last season it was still three (Cummings, J. Mills, Le Fondre)

This season, however, there has been just the one (Shorey).

So, as much as everyone else has been dismissive, I do think it's an interesting trend. I've skimmed through line-ups of the last few years and I think this could be the first time it's happened but as you can see, this point has been inevitable.


NB: I've classed "regular" as having started at least a third of games.

How can you include Le Fondre last season but not this - he's playing as regularly this season

As I said on the end, start one third of games. Last season he did, albeit only just. Whereas this season he has started less than one third of games, although he has made many sub appearances. I know it's rather arbitrary but I had to draw the line somewhere when I was looking at this.



But, the specifics aren't all that important. I was just trying to make the point that there's been a general decrease in "english" players so it was inevitable that we'd eventually field a team with none in even if that technically happened 17 months ago and we didn't notice!

[MouldyRoyal]

Jobi on representing Jamaica and being English:

"Jamaica is where my dad is from [...] I’m born and bred in England and people sometimes don’t understand players going off to play for another country, but for me being Jamaican is part of my life and I feel equally Jamaican as I do English."

I know what the OP is getting at, but personally I do find it interesting how people from families with origins outside of the UK can closely associate with both countries. It's something I think, as a country, we do well. Certainly better than in France where a lot (not all, clearly) of people born in France but of African origin don't identify as being French at all. See interviews with Benoit Assou-Ekotto for example.

[If you still hate Futcher]

[SPACEY}Be honest now - if you were French but had the chance not to be, which would you choose[/SPACEY]

[skipper]

What right does your first child lack?

It's to do with inheritance and the like. If you have a Will, then that overrides the pre and post marital status.

If you don't have a will, then you can get a form, and re-register the eldest child, which I believe is free!

[Magic Hat]

if Scotland get independence i can have dual nationality. I was born in England, but to Scottish parents, and am the first in my family to be born over the border, and I have always considered myself to be Scottish, even though i wasn't born there.

My dad always uses the term - "Just because you're born in stable doesn't make you a horse".

i think what my point is, even if you are born in another country, but you're roots are firmly grown in another country, you have the choice to pick.

I always liked that quote from Wellington on being born in Ireland. "Just because one is born in a stable doesn't make one a horse."

[maffff]

Out of interest, when did McCleary become Jamaican?

[sputnik]

On an aside, and for the oldies amongst us, wasn't Bobby Lenarduzzi our first overseas International?

Hugh Davey played for us and Ireland in the 1920s

Attilio Fresia?

Of course. Capped a few days before Reading's tour of Italy and subsequent move to Reading.

[72 bus]

Out of interest, when did McCleary become Jamaican?

Yesterday

[Royal Biscuitman]

Alex Pearce. Born in Wallingford, England.

ROI...

So he represents ROI at international level but he was born in England. He is English.

Also represented Scotland at a lower level didn't he?