BFTG Wigan

[Royal91]

Not sure if its been posted.

http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/reading/id/524?cc=5739

[Reading West]

Hmmm that ESPN article was very interesting, in a way looking into the minds of our 2 most introverted managers McD and SC and how that reflects on the team when the pressure is on.

As seen in the Wigan match (and the Fulham home match in '08) there maybe an ounce of truth in the comments in the article.

[melonhead]

meh.

[Tony Le Mesmer]

Its a good a read, but slightly blinkered really in that its a theory based on a total of 3 games, 2 in 2008 and last Saturday. Its also a bit rich to criticise an ethos that has brought such huge success to the club in the shape on 2 Championship titles.

Before Saturday, we had lost 3 home games. Against Spurs, Arsenal and Man Utd. We were undefeated in the other 10. Hardly points to us cracking in the games that count. It just picks out 3 games where we have.

[melonhead]

really gone off dirkers since he changed his style

[creative_username_1]

Just opinion not based on any empirical evidence other than:

Reading got beat by Wigan - overating the percieved outlooks of the two teams

Reading - one game at a time and they lost so it must be down to that
Wigan - every game is a cup final and they won so it must be down to that

It's possible that a stronger team may not play as well as a weaker team on any given day. There
doesn't have to be any stronger reason than randomness. There is no way of testing whether various
changes in formations/personel would have worked

[Tony Le Mesmer]

I guess we also choked the away games at West Ham and Southampton last year as well?

[Vision]

Unless I've misread it, I'm not sure at any stage the games were "irretrievably slipping away" against either West Ham or Southampton games last season. Southampton were never ahead whilst West Ham's lead lasted until just before half time and they never lead after that. It's also stretching it a bit to suggest that the pressure was off in the 2nd leg of the Cardiff as well. For the theory to fit surely we'd have buckled once we took an early lead but we didn't and we never looked like doing anything other than win that game.

There are always many factors in a relegation but the significant one in 07/08 was the two heavy away defeats at Pompey and Spurs. Basically we went from an aggressive counter attacking side prepared to commit numbers forward to a timid one who's full backs barely crossed the half way line. That side just suddenly stopped doing what it was good at and as a result went down with a whimper. Thats my worry now with our "4-5-1 stay in the game and hope to nick late goals" schtick. It's just too passive and when you're faced with a relegation scrap it's generally those sides that impose themselves and their own game that give themselves the best chance.

[Tony Le Mesmer]

There are always many factors in a relegation but the significant one in 07/08 was the two heavy away defeats at Pompey and Spurs. Basically we went from an aggressive counter attacking side prepared to commit numbers forward to a timid one who's full backs barely crossed the half way line. That side just suddenly stopped doing what it was good at and as a result went down with a whimper. Thats my worry now with our "4-5-1 stay in the game and hope to nick late goals" schtick. It's just too passive and when you're faced with a relegation scrap it's generally those sides that impose themselves and their own game that give themselves the best chance.

Spent half time on Sat talking about exactly that. We were definately right to go 451 back in Dec. We had to. But when you play alien formations like that its only ever going to be a stop gap that will have a limited lifespan. I actually think Pog's suspension will be a blessing in disguise.

[BR2]

An interesting read by the ESPN writer who obviously knows a bit about our club.
Immediately some posters have gone on the defensive but there is probably something in what the writer says and as vision has said it is about the approach of the team/manager to a particular game with this "nicking a win" philosophy rather than going out and making a statement which is disappointing.

One comment by Coppell sticks in my mind and that is he wanted players to think their own way out of problems during a game (in contrast to Pardew and many other coaches' way of barking instructions)-I feel that this current squad looks like one that always has to be told what to do and they become lost when that is not working.
That may well be down to the characters of the individuals and the late great Bill Shankly said that before signing a player he needed to know as much about the character of a player before considering buying him because anybody could see what a player could do ON the pitch.

[Ian Royal]

I've noticed a huge difference between us and most other teams all season. Most of the others have movement off the ball with players always trying to form a triangle with the one on the ball to give passing options. Our team seems to just stand there and wait offering no easy outlet. In fact the only time we play a triangle is when we go back and forth between midfield and defence. As soon as the opposition presses forward that fades and the defender has no option but to hoof because there's usually not a lot else on.

It's such a basic part of football its really rather worrying. It's one of the reasons why I think Guthrie hasn't been that effective. It doesn't matter how good a passer he is, if no one's showing for him, there's not a lot he can do.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

To paraphrase the sentiment in the ESPN article, I'd say that the author was trying to make the point that when you approach every game in exactly the same way, and you don't let losing matches adversely affect you, then it means that don't know how to approach a game that *is* important and *does* matter.

It's a great approach when you're winning and when you're the under-dogs, but it's rubbish when you've got your backs against the wall - base your philosophy on avoiding pressure, and - surprise, surprise! - when you are under pressure you won't know what to do!

A case in point : all the media coming from the RFC publicity machine last week was playing-down the importance of the Wigan match

McAnuff refuses to label any game at this stage of the year as a ‘must-win’ ....

. At the same time the Wigan approach to this game was to approach it as a "cup final", according to Paul Scharner. Just whose approach was better on the day?

[The Prisoner]

I seem to recall the guy who wrote the ESPN article is a Reading fan. Certainly can't imagine that anyone who hasn't seen a lot of us could be that insightful (albeit there a few errors, such as not being behind at Southampton etc).

I have always been more concerned about us in the games we think we should get something from. We have papered over the cracks in January and hauled ourself out of trouble when arguably we don't really deserve to - and truthfully we have never really looked like a prem team.

I don't think we have given the best account of ourselves, but some of what we have done has baffled even the experts (practically playing rush goalie against Arsenal for example).

Dearly want to stay up, but just can't see it now. I expect draws at best against Southampton, QPR and Villa (win those and Wigan and we would have been safe), with some wonder result against someone we don't expect (probably Everton just to lull us into a sense of false hope), but with a 19th place failure nailed on.

I had one of the worst weekends of my life though this weekend (if you have Apple iMessage you need to make sure you set up different email addresses for your iDevices as your wife gets texts from your mistress on her iPad) - so this didn't really matter to me. It's not the despair that kills you......

[melonhead]

To paraphrase the sentiment in the ESPN article, I'd say that the author was trying to make the point that .....

if theres one person on here in a position to tell us all what he thinks the author was trying to say, it is you

[Victor Meldrew]

I've noticed a huge difference between us and most other teams all season. Most of the others have movement off the ball with players always trying to form a triangle with the one on the ball to give passing options. Our team seems to just stand there and wait offering no easy outlet. In fact the only time we play a triangle is when we go back and forth between midfield and defence. As soon as the opposition presses forward that fades and the defender has no option but to hoof because there's usually not a lot else on.

It's such a basic part of football its really rather worrying. It's one of the reasons why I think Guthrie hasn't been that effective. It doesn't matter how good a passer he is, if no one's showing for him, there's not a lot he can do.

A very good point about movement Ian,something that my brother and I have been going on about for ages.
It is often suggested that ours is a hard-working team-my take on it is that our players do work hard at times closiing down the opposition but are lazy in trying to make space up front.
IMHO Alf is the only one who makes runs hoping the ball will occasionally end up where he has gone but generally the others wait to see what happens and then react.
For all his other faults Suarez is constantly making runs that do not necessarily always end up with a pass to him but he is forever on the move.
The two Argentinians at City do the same.

[RoyalBlue]

I seem to recall the guy who wrote the ESPN article is a Reading fan.

Your recollection is indeed correct. What's more, in pantomime terms can I suggest that 'he's behind you!' or, more correctly on this occasion, 'just above you'!

[Blackbag]

I said saturday felt just like the Fulham game but with Pog ghone for three games maybe its time to go back to 4 4 2 and imo play blackman instead of Hunt f.ck it

[Vision]

I've noticed a huge difference between us and most other teams all season. Most of the others have movement off the ball with players always trying to form a triangle with the one on the ball to give passing options. Our team seems to just stand there and wait offering no easy outlet. In fact the only time we play a triangle is when we go back and forth between midfield and defence. As soon as the opposition presses forward that fades and the defender has no option but to hoof because there's usually not a lot else on.

It's such a basic part of football its really rather worrying. It's one of the reasons why I think Guthrie hasn't been that effective. It doesn't matter how good a passer he is, if no one's showing for him, there's not a lot he can do.

A very good point about movement Ian,something that my brother and I have been going on about for ages.
It is often suggested that ours is a hard-working team-my take on it is that our players do work hard at times closiing down the opposition but are lazy in trying to make space up front.
IMHO Alf is the only one who makes runs hoping the ball will occasionally end up where he has gone but generally the others wait to see what happens and then react.
For all his other faults Suarez is constantly making runs that do not necessarily always end up with a pass to him but he is forever on the move.
The two Argentinians at City do the same.

This. There's a lot of guff talked about the "passing game" when really it's always been the "moving game" just as much. All professional footballers can pass the ball (yes even Liegertwood and Karacan). It's the the speed at which the options open for them or whether they have the vision to see those options which sets the best apart from the rest. I love the Leon Brittain story of coming up through the divisions with Swansea and having a higher pass completion rate than the Barcelona midfielders but take him out of Swansea and put him elsewhere and he'd struggle just as much as his mate Joe Allen is showing at Liverpool. And it's not like Liverpool play like Stoke or Reading either, they just haven't quite got the same level of movement.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

I've noticed a huge difference between us and most other teams all season. Most of the others have movement off the ball with players always trying to form a triangle with the one on the ball to give passing options. Our team seems to just stand there and wait offering no easy outlet. In fact the only time we play a triangle is when we go back and forth between midfield and defence. As soon as the opposition presses forward that fades and the defender has no option but to hoof because there's usually not a lot else on.

It's such a basic part of football its really rather worrying. It's one of the reasons why I think Guthrie hasn't been that effective. It doesn't matter how good a passer he is, if no one's showing for him, there's not a lot he can do.

A very good point about movement Ian,something that my brother and I have been going on about for ages.
It is often suggested that ours is a hard-working team-my take on it is that our players do work hard at times closiing down the opposition but are lazy in trying to make space up front.
IMHO Alf is the only one who makes runs hoping the ball will occasionally end up where he has gone but generally the others wait to see what happens and then react.
For all his other faults Suarez is constantly making runs that do not necessarily always end up with a pass to him but he is forever on the move.
The two Argentinians at City do the same.

This. There's a lot of guff talked about the "passing game" when really it's always been the "moving game" just as much. All professional footballers can pass the ball (yes even Liegertwood and Karacan). It's the the speed at which the options open for them or whether they have the vision to see those options which sets the best apart from the rest. I love the Leon Brittain story of coming up through the divisions with Swansea and having a higher pass completion rate than the Barcelona midfielders but take him out of Swansea and put him elsewhere and he'd struggle just as much as his mate Joe Allen is showing at Liverpool. And it's not like Liverpool play like Stoke or Reading either, they just haven't quite got the same level of movement.

Yep, agree completely with this. And at the same time the back four and midfield either hoof the ball aimlessly forward or (like Harte did with the second goal on Saturday), dither and look up then pass it sideways so someone else can take the responsibility.

Just as important as people making runs is the rest of the team knowing that those runs will be made and anticipating them, and - with the possible exception of Guthrie - no-one seems to be on that sort of wavelength.

[sandman]

Yay back to the "different wavelength" crap.