Where was Guthrie again?!

[Hoop Blah]

2ww1wc, we've been pretty close to being effective at times this season, especially early on when we took a lot of leads but didn't have the nouse to hold on to them.

Getting a little more out of what we have (I really don't think McDermott got the most out of the squad for most of the season) could well have had us half a dozen or so points better off at Christmas. That could've made all the difference in being able to attract another couple of players.

I do agree our squad is one of the weakest in the division in terms of the strength of the starting 11 and the depth to provide cover and competition. I don't think it's quite the miracle of management that some seem to suggest that we've managed to compete as well as we have though. If we didn't have enough quality in the squad I still think a lot of the blame for that is at McDermotts feet as my impression is that he was happy to go with what we had and didn't demand funds to really shake up the squad.

[melonhead]

2ww1wc, we've been pretty close to being effective at times this season, especially early on when we took a lot of leads but didn't have the nouse to hold on to them.

Getting a little more out of what we have (I really don't think McDermott got the most out of the squad for most of the season) could well have had us half a dozen or so points better off at Christmas. That could've made all the difference in being able to attract another couple of players.

I do agree our squad is one of the weakest in the division in terms of the strength of the starting 11 and the depth to provide cover and competition. I don't think it's quite the miracle of management that some seem to suggest that we've managed to compete as well as we have though. If we didn't have enough quality in the squad I still think a lot of the blame for that is at McDermotts feet as my impression is that he was happy to go with what we had and didn't demand funds to really shake up the squad.

the times we have been effective is when our entire squad is fit and in form.
its when form dips, injuries to key players kick in, which is bound to happen througghout the season, that we have struggled.
hence its the squad.
you can rely on zero injuries, and you cant rely on players hitting and maintaining top form all season.

[Elm Park Pasty]

2ww1wc, we've been pretty close to being effective at times this season, especially early on when we took a lot of leads but didn't have the nouse to hold on to them.

Getting a little more out of what we have (I really don't think McDermott got the most out of the squad for most of the season) could well have had us half a dozen or so points better off at Christmas. That could've made all the difference in being able to attract another couple of players.

I do agree our squad is one of the weakest in the division in terms of the strength of the starting 11 and the depth to provide cover and competition. I don't think it's quite the miracle of management that some seem to suggest that we've managed to compete as well as we have though. If we didn't have enough quality in the squad I still think a lot of the blame for that is at McDermotts feet as my impression is that he was happy to go with what we had and didn't demand funds to really shake up the squad.

We were too naive in thinking that a system that (luckily) got us the championship title was going to work in the Premier League, and having woken up to that, we reacted too late to try something different.

[Hoop Blah]

the times we have been effective is when our entire squad is fit and in form.
its when form dips, injuries to key players kick in, which is bound to happen througghout the season, that we have struggled.
hence its the squad.
you can rely on zero injuries, and you cant rely on players hitting and maintaining top form all season.

I don't think we've ever had a fully fit squad, let alone one where everyone was in form and, to an extent, that's down to the manager to shuffle the pack and get players both fit and in form.

Instead we started the season with a keeper who wasn't fit and who hadn't had a proper pre-season. We persisted with a centre half who was either not good enough, or woefully out of form for far too long (imagine in the standards held against Pearce recently were applied to Gorkss for the first four months of the season) and midfield combinations that just weren't really working, to the extent that a player who became first choice has been told he's not good enough and not needed anymore.

Some of that was down to a lack of quality and depth in the squad yes, but some of it was down to poor management and sticking with a formation and cavalier approach for full 90 minutes when it was pretty clear to many that this wasn't the way to get results. It hampered the players in my opinion and that meant the likes of Legiertwood never found his form.

[melonhead]

I don't think we've ever had a fully fit squad,

hence why weve done so badly
what im saying is that with a squad as poor as ours we need all/majority our key players in the team, fit and in some sort of form in order to be effective.

[Hoop Blah]

You said the times we've been effective is when we've had a fully fit squad....

Anyway, the club can't and shouldn't plan for having a fully fit squad, it doesn't happen. The whole point is having enough in the squad to compensate for players being out.

I don't buy the fact we have key players that without we can't be effective either. Nobody in our squad is that much better than their competition for that to be the case. We're too average throughout for that to be the case and failing to turn some of our leads into wins etc is more to do with the use of our resources than the resources themselves.

[Royal91]

He is probably our best midfielder at keeping the ball but that is absolutely it. I do not see how he should be in the team. On the bench to throw on if we need to pass the time but he hasnt justified starting every game at all. Akpan has put him to shame tbh.

Don't be so ridiculous!

Our best run of the season came when Pearce and Guthrie were in the side!

[Royal91]

Emerse Fae, Marek Matejovsky, Daniel Carricco and Danny Guthrie. All signed with hope and optimism, in the belief that they would transform us into a competitive premisership team. Apparently none of them have been good enough for us. Tells me that the club is cluless in how it integrates any players with a modicum of ability into our team. We only seem capable of integrating rough diamonds from the lower leagues. Buck stops with the manager and coaching staff IMO.

The problem is when the other 10 can't pass a ball or MOVE INTO SPACE they become is equally pointless and ineffective.

You can't just buy one passing player and expect to transform the team. You need at least 6 players who can knock it about. Nobody at Reading seems to realise that

Throw Xavi in our team and he would be equally ineffective.

[_royal]

Would love to see a midfield that consists of:
Karacan
Kebe Akpan Guthrie McCleary

BM would never pick this though

[Royal91]

Would love to see a midfield that consists of:
Karacan
Kebe Akpan Guthrie McCleary

BM would never pick this though

THIS 1000000000%

[melonhead]

You said the times we've been effective is when we've had a fully fit squad....

Anyway, the club can't and shouldn't plan for having a fully fit squad, it doesn't happen. The whole point is having enough in the squad to compensate for players being out.

I don't buy the fact we have key players that without we can't be effective either. Nobody in our squad is that much better than their competition for that to be the case. We're too average throughout for that to be the case and failing to turn some of our leads into wins etc is more to do with the use of our resources than the resources themselves.

im not saying we should plan for a fully fit squad. im just saying, and im sure you agree, that if our squad had better quality, loss of fitness and form to key players would have had less of an impact

[72 bus]

im just saying, and im sure you agree, that if our squad had better quality, loss of fitness and form to key players would have had less of an impact

And whose fault is that.
Anton confirmed that there has been money available both in the close season and in Jan.
The 10-12 million bids for Siggy points to this being the truth.

It is looking like the issue was MD not understanding the demands of the PL or the fact that our scouting network and contacts in the game are not up to the job.
We bought two players in Akpan and Blackman who we only spotted because we played against their teams, Kelly, who brian had got pissed with at Kevin doyle's wedding and a badly broken Carrico.

Hardly the actions of a club and manager who know what they are doing in this division

[Ian Royal]

2ww1wc, we've been pretty close to being effective at times this season, especially early on when we took a lot of leads but didn't have the nouse to hold on to them.

Getting a little more out of what we have (I really don't think McDermott got the most out of the squad for most of the season) could well have had us half a dozen or so points better off at Christmas. That could've made all the difference in being able to attract another couple of players.

I do agree our squad is one of the weakest in the division in terms of the strength of the starting 11 and the depth to provide cover and competition. I don't think it's quite the miracle of management that some seem to suggest that we've managed to compete as well as we have though. If we didn't have enough quality in the squad I still think a lot of the blame for that is at McDermotts feet as my impression is that he was happy to go with what we had and didn't demand funds to really shake up the squad.

This. This. This.

But for Federici's clangers at Chelsea and against Stoke, we could 3 points better off. With better management against Swansea away we could be 2 points better off. With better management during the run of 7 defeats (for the first six anyway) we could have picked up the odd point there too rather than just kept losing.

Bad start = low morale and form = poorer performances afterwards. With just three games highlighted for minor alterations in performance and result we're suddenly out of the bottom four and looking rosey. ANd yet McDermott has apparently got the squad performing to its absolute limit. My arse has he.

[melonhead]

im just saying, and im sure you agree, that if our squad had better quality, loss of fitness and form to key players would have had less of an impact

And whose fault is that.
Anton confirmed that there has been money available both in the close season and in Jan.
The 10-12 million bids for Siggy points to this being the truth.

id say the "blame" for who made the decisions on budget in tehe summer is very much unclear, rather than crystal clear it was brian


the ten twelve million bids in january are simply a sign that the club as a whole reliased its mistake.
it says nothing about who made that original decision

[Millsy]

id say the "blame" for who made the decisions on budget in tehe summer is very much unclear, rather than crystal clear it was brian


the ten twelve million bids in january are simply a sign that the club as a whole reliased its mistake.
it says nothing about who made that original decision

Exactly.

We heard the same nonsense about Coppell having funds but choosing not to spend as we do now with Brian. We realised our mistake- Anton has admitted it - and so we went all out in January but it sadly wasn't to be.

I am not however blaming Anton or Sir John this time. If we go down its bad luck. As a fiercely critical Madejski basher for not spending even I thought our approach over the summer period was right - and I was someone who berated the club for not spending on other occasions!! I think we took a gamble that didn't pay off and no one is to blame for that. If anyone is to blame though it's ridiculous to suggest its Brian, who on many occasions has blatantly blamed lack of funds.

[Millsy]

2ww1wc, we've been pretty close to being effective at times this season, especially early on when we took a lot of leads but didn't have the nouse to hold on to them.

Getting a little more out of what we have (I really don't think McDermott got the most out of the squad for most of the season) could well have had us half a dozen or so points better off at Christmas. That could've made all the difference in being able to attract another couple of players.

I do agree our squad is one of the weakest in the division in terms of the strength of the starting 11 and the depth to provide cover and competition. I don't think it's quite the miracle of management that some seem to suggest that we've managed to compete as well as we have though. If we didn't have enough quality in the squad I still think a lot of the blame for that is at McDermotts feet as my impression is that he was happy to go with what we had and didn't demand funds to really shake up the squad.

I agree HB, we have been close to being Effective, and as a result we are close to avoiding relegation. close is not good enough.

I would argue (I of course may be wrong, it's just the way I see it and your opinion is just as valid of course) that we have done well DESPITE our poor squad and BECAUSE of Brian.

If that is so it then begs the question why did we not strengthen over the summer. As someone who has long campaigned for more spending even I didn't think this was necessary over the summer and was quite happy with what we did. Yes Brian could've pushed for more possibly (assuming he didn't already try and wasn't turned down). Who knows. If he should have tried but didn't I don't blame him. As you say we were "close" to being effective so he wasnt far out. As I say I was fooled into thinking it was a reasonable gamble too. It turned out to be wrong. I don't think anyone can blame Brian here, or the board. We thought we'd give it a go on the cheap and it just didn't work. Our squad isn't good enough, we now sadly know.

My point though is that whatever the reasons for our squad being "close" as opposed to "good enough" the fact is that we are only sadly close and likely not close enough. No single selection or system alteration can change this so lets not blame Brian for his system or selection.

[Hoop Blah]

id say the "blame" for who made the decisions on budget in tehe summer is very much unclear, rather than crystal clear it was brian


the ten twelve million bids in january are simply a sign that the club as a whole reliased its mistake.
it says nothing about who made that original decision

Exactly.

We heard the same nonsense about Coppell having funds but choosing not to spend as we do now with Brian. We realised our mistake- Anton has admitted it - and so we went all out in January but it sadly wasn't to be.

I am not however blaming Anton or Sir John this time. If we go down its bad luck. As a fiercely critical Madejski basher for not spending even I thought our approach over the summer period was right - and I was someone who berated the club for not spending on other occasions!! I think we took a gamble that didn't pay off and no one is to blame for that. If anyone is to blame though it's ridiculous to suggest its Brian, who on many occasions has blatantly blamed lack of funds.

That 'rubbish' about Coppell not choosing to spend more money even though it was available came from the man himself though. He confirmed that he didn't sign 2 or 3 individuals because he didn't think it was necessary and they weren't any better than what we had.

I don't think luck really comes into it either. It's not unlucky that it took so long to get much impact from our summer signings. It's not luck that we threw away more points than anyone else from leading positions in the first few months of the season. It's not luck that we didn't seem to have any really effective tactical plan to get the best out of our resources. It certainly isn't luck that we played an unfit goalkeeper for the a handful of games which looks to have costs us some vital points.

I obvioulsy don't know how much it was Zingaravich or McDermott, or the balance of their joint decision, that set the budgets in the summer but I've made it pretty clear in the past that I think the majority of the fault was McDermotts. Why? Because he's the one who should be managing expectations with the board about what is needed. If he felt we needed more it's partly down to him to eek more out of what might be available. From everything I've heard or seen since my gut feeling is that he was pretty content with what he was given and wasn't pushing for more.

[melonhead]

he didn't sign 2 or 3 individuals because he didn't think it was necessary and they weren't any better than what we had.

agreed- thats from coppello himself
no guarantee they were better though tbf.
i always saw it as more -if you could get 2-3 players, afford them, get them to come here, AND they were defo better than anything we had, thenthen we should have done so

[Hoop Blah]

I agree HB, we have been close to being Effective, and as a result we are close to avoiding relegation. close is not good enough.

I would argue (I of course may be wrong, it's just the way I see it and your opinion is just as valid of course) that we have done well DESPITE our poor squad and BECAUSE of Brian.

Fiar enough, that's one way of looking at it. As I've said elsewhere though I really don't think it was a miracle of management from Brian that made our squad nearly competitive. I think there have been many mistakes made that hampered the team and ultimately cost us points in certain games and then subsequent ones as the pressure built and the losing habit deepened.

If McDermott had made all the right decisions and kept all his players happy, motivated, fit and on form then we might not've performed any better. I'd wager my mortgage that we would've been better off if he'd had the perfect campaign though, but we'll never know.

[Hoop Blah]

he didn't sign 2 or 3 individuals because he didn't think it was necessary and they weren't any better than what we had.

agreed- thats from coppello himself
no guarantee they were better though tbf.
i always saw it as more -if you could get 2-3 players, afford them, get them to come here, AND they were defo better than anything we had, thenthen we should have done so

They may well have all bombed out yes, but if he'd gone with the likes of Cahill, Taylor and O'Neil as it was suggested at the time then we'd have had a pretty good chance of improving the team over the likes of Duberry, an injured Sonko, a failing Shorey and any number of square pegs in round holes that we ended up with on the right of midfield.