Zingarevich Out!!!

[Alexander Litvinenko]

But it's a complete unknown exactly what percentage of the TV income would have been spent on the team whoever is/was in charge.

We also don't know how much SSC asked for in 2006 or 2007 - or even if he did.

Yes, without the TSI loan (although tbf I understand it was a guarantee note, rather than a loan as such) we wouldn't be in the PL - but everyone got extremely lucky with the timing of how everything went on that, with the impact Roberts had and the improbable winning run we went on.

What that timing meant in real life was that the need for external investment was postponed until either we get relegated or we want to spend more than we get from the PL in a season. The second one hasn't happened, the first one is now highly likely, so we'll see.

But please, don't think that by saying that no external money has been put in yet that I'm predicting downfall or knocking your beloved saviours at TSI - it's just a fact to help move the debate on and correct some of the speculation/misinformation in it so far.

(PS - by sticking your hands over your ears and going "La, La, La, negative, negative, negative" whenever anyone says anything you don't like about AZ, aren't you being just as one-eyed as you accuse other people of being?)

[Hoop Blah]

Just to pick up on a point I think has been banded about on here and certainly by Mick Gooding on Radio Berks last weekend, was that McDermott overacheived last year because he didn't have one of the bigger budgets in the division.

Our wage bill last season was about £25m. That was most likely one of the top 3 or 4 budgets last season (in fact it's only slightly less than 'reckless spenders' QPR's the year they went up!).

[Royal With Cheese]

Just to pick up on a point I think has been banded about on here and certainly by Mick Gooding on Radio Berks last weekend, was that McDermott overacheived last year because he didn't have one of the bigger budgets in the division.

Our wage bill last season was about £25m. That was most likely one of the top 3 or 4 budgets last season (in fact it's only slightly less than 'reckless spenders' QPR's the year they went up!).

Surely that includes bonuses for winning the title? If we hadn't gone up I would imagine this would have been considerably less.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

Just to pick up on a point I think has been banded about on here and certainly by Mick Gooding on Radio Berks last weekend, was that McDermott overacheived last year because he didn't have one of the bigger budgets in the division.

Our wage bill last season was about £25m. That was most likely one of the top 3 or 4 budgets last season (in fact it's only slightly less than 'reckless spenders' QPR's the year they went up!).

The collated figures for 2011/12 aren't available yet, but certainly the season before we had the 4th largest Championship wage bill, according to Deloitte Annual Review of Football Finance ...

1.   Middlesboro   40.938M
2.   QPR               29,739
3.   Hull               21.209
4.   Reading        20.511
5.   Burnley         19.392
6.   Norwich        18.445
7.   Sheff Weds   17.392
8.   Sheff Utd      17,794
9.   Ipswich         17.552
10.   Leeds          16.960
11.  Forest         16.555 

[Z175]

Just to pick up on a point I think has been banded about on here and certainly by Mick Gooding on Radio Berks last weekend, was that McDermott overacheived last year because he didn't have one of the bigger budgets in the division.

Our wage bill last season was about £25m. That was most likely one of the top 3 or 4 budgets last season (in fact it's only slightly less than 'reckless spenders' QPR's the year they went up!).

Surely that includes bonuses for winning the title? If we hadn't gone up I would imagine this would have been considerably less.

It started the year at 17m, probably down to less than £15m after losing Long, Mills and Khiz, probably 3 of the highest earners.
Thats the figure that got McDermott into the top 6 by January. He probably had an extra £3m or so in then from Anton to fund Roberts and his loaning spree, before we paid out about £6m in promotion bonuses, a substantial amount of which will not have gone to players, but to the management team too. Its hard to compare but probably for half the season we had a budget in the bottom half of the league, as widely reported at the time, and with Antons money it was probably no more than any other side and less than some.

[Hoop Blah]

Just to pick up on a point I think has been banded about on here and certainly by Mick Gooding on Radio Berks last weekend, was that McDermott overacheived last year because he didn't have one of the bigger budgets in the division.

Our wage bill last season was about £25m. That was most likely one of the top 3 or 4 budgets last season (in fact it's only slightly less than 'reckless spenders' QPR's the year they went up!).

Surely that includes bonuses for winning the title? If we hadn't gone up I would imagine this would have been considerably less.

Probably an element of it yes, and I just double checked and it was £26.5m, up from £18.3 the year before. Still I'd be surprised if it was far off the top four.

I know last time around our promotion bonus' were pitiful and the players moaned about it (even though they signed up to them) so perhaps this time there was a more substantial bonus in place. My point was really that the resources were there and he wasn't working quite the miracles some might have presented promotion as being.

Interestingly enough, although not surprising, Leicester and West Hamlooked like the biggest underachievers as their respective wage bills were £27.7m and £40m!

[Ouroboros]

Just to pick up on a point I think has been banded about on here and certainly by Mick Gooding on Radio Berks last weekend, was that McDermott overacheived last year because he didn't have one of the bigger budgets in the division.

Our wage bill last season was about £25m. That was most likely one of the top 3 or 4 budgets last season (in fact it's only slightly less than 'reckless spenders' QPR's the year they went up!).

The collated figures for 2011/12 aren't available yet, but certainly the season before we had the 4th largest Championship wage bill, according to Deloitte Annual Review of Football Finance ...

1.   Middlesboro   40.938M
2.   QPR               29,739
3.   Hull               21.209
4.   Reading        20.511
5.   Burnley         19.392
6.   Norwich        18.445
7.   Sheff Weds   17.392
8.   Sheff Utd      17,794
9.   Ipswich         17.552
10.   Leeds          16.960
11.  Forest         16.555 

So we're agreed that he overachieved in winning the division, then?

[RoyalBlue]

oh give it a rest!
i dont know what has happened to you dirk, but you have almost become the most negative bloke on here.

weve spent money we wouldnt have under JM. thats for sure.
whether thats from his pocket, or not, im happy that the purse strings have been released slightly.
the club and squad in my view has progressed in every transfer window since before he took over.
did it progress enough, not quite, but it definitely has.and im happy with that.

i see no evidence whatsoever of the downfall of the club youve been predicting since he took over.
when i do ill change my mind. but its silly doing the chicken licken when the sky hasnt even started falling in

Brendy, FFS stop seeing me as being negative and always knocking things - try reading what I've said and seeing what it says, rather than what you expect it to say.

I've just said that no external money has been paid in yet - and that there's been no need for external money to have been paid in yet.

I've not said the purse strings *haven't* been relaxed, I've not said any downfall is imminent, in fact I've deliberately not stated an opinion or made a prediction. There's no negativity in it - it's just a factual statement of how I understand the finances have been run this year.

The only point of yours that I'd argue with is the suggestion that anyone has "invested about 15 million quid more into the team than SJM would have done." Just how do you know that, or know what JM would have done?

Because the key point you seem to have missed that I'm trying to make - without being negative, just being factual - is that the extra expenditure that's been made this season is more than covered by the TV income that is guaranteed from a year in the Premier League - no-one is out of pocket by the extra that has been spent this season. No money needs to have been put in from outside for us to have spent what we have. So where does your £15M invested come from?

In a rare moment of agreement with Melonhead, he is right. Regardless of where the money has come from, under AZ we have still invested more than would have been the case under Madejski. And I repeat that AZ was prepared to put significant money into the club (whether or not 'loan' a la Madejski) before the deal to buy it went through. Without that, we would not have gone up because it was pretty clear that Madejski wasn't going to meet Kebe's expectations nor would he have backed Roberts coming on board.

[Z175]

On the 'it was only a loan' front, I think it has to be done that way.

I'm not sure why but it seems all external injections of cash are done via a loan at whatever club you look at when an individual or owning company want to spunk more money on players etc. Perhaps one of the many bean counters on here could clarify or explain a bit more, but I believe even Abramovich's money is technically appearing as loans to Chelsea.

Seeing as you ask

The rule of thumb is that its better to use loans (as opposed to buying shares) when putting money into a company, as it is more tax efficient. You can deduct any interest payments when calculating the company's tax bill, but if you bought shares and paid dividends instead of interest, these cannot be deducted.

For example if Malcolm Glazer bought £1bn shares in Man Utd and they make a profit of £100m, they pay tax of £24m.
But if he lends them £1bn, and they make a profit of £100m, and pay him £100m in interest, they pay tax of £0! There are rules to prevent this being abused, but thats the basic principle. Similar rules are under consideration by UEFA for FFP, and avoiding this is why Abramovich has actually converted his loans into shares.

However most football clubs are loss making, so they often pay very little corporation tax (which is paid on profit -when HMRC start winding up clubs, its normally unpaid VAT or players income tax not being passed on.)

So the real reason is in case the club goes into administration. If you are a shareholder, you are legally at the end of the queue of creditors, so are likely to lose all your money. Portsmouth's saga has mainly been due to their previous owner, Sacha Gaydamak, bankrolling the wagebill with loans, which now make him their largest creditor, so the administrators have to agree to pay him some money in order to rescue the club. If he merely still owned shares, he'd have no way to get some of his cash back.

However, its quite clear that Zingarevich loaned Reading money because he hadn't yet bought the club, so its absolutely not an indication that he wants to do a Gaydamak, its just a normal way of doing business ,all the more so if you don't own the club! Madejski's money has always been loaned the club anyway.

[maffff]

oh give it a rest!
i dont know what has happened to you dirk, but you have almost become the most negative bloke on here.

weve spent money we wouldnt have under JM. thats for sure.
whether thats from his pocket, or not, im happy that the purse strings have been released slightly.
the club and squad in my view has progressed in every transfer window since before he took over.
did it progress enough, not quite, but it definitely has.and im happy with that.

i see no evidence whatsoever of the downfall of the club youve been predicting since he took over.
when i do ill change my mind. but its silly doing the chicken licken when the sky hasnt even started falling in

Brendy, FFS stop seeing me as being negative and always knocking things - try reading what I've said and seeing what it says, rather than what you expect it to say.

I've just said that no external money has been paid in yet - and that there's been no need for external money to have been paid in yet.

I've not said the purse strings *haven't* been relaxed, I've not said any downfall is imminent, in fact I've deliberately not stated an opinion or made a prediction. There's no negativity in it - it's just a factual statement of how I understand the finances have been run this year.

The only point of yours that I'd argue with is the suggestion that anyone has "invested about 15 million quid more into the team than SJM would have done." Just how do you know that, or know what JM would have done?

Because the key point you seem to have missed that I'm trying to make - without being negative, just being factual - is that the extra expenditure that's been made this season is more than covered by the TV income that is guaranteed from a year in the Premier League - no-one is out of pocket by the extra that has been spent this season. No money needs to have been put in from outside for us to have spent what we have. So where does your £15M invested come from?

In a rare moment of agreement with Melonhead, he is right. Regardless of where the money has come from, under AZ we have still invested more than would have been the case under Madejski. And I repeat that AZ was prepared to put significant money into the club (whether or not 'loan' a la Madejski) before the deal to buy it went through. Without that, we would not have gone up because it was pretty clear that Madejski wasn't going to meet Kebe's expectations nor would he have backed Roberts coming on board.

.......and then we look at the infrastructure. That is progressing at a quicker rate than it was with Madejski in recent years.

[Hoop Blah]

So we're agreed that he overachieved in winning the division, then?

That was the year we made the play-offs....

I'm not suggesting McDermott didn't do a very good job, just that when I hear people saying he massively over achieved with one of the league's smaller budgets (that's pretty much word for word from Gooding and similar to the underlying comments on here often enuogh) it's not quite the case.

[RoyalBlue]

tbf at no point had i said/meant it came out of his own pocket.
just that it had been spent.



i base it on the evidence to hand. last time we got to the premiere league, JM spent 1 million quid in the summer. and that was when he had money.
im just assuming that now he doesnt have money, and wont spend what he does have on the club that it would probably be less this time.
think thats pretty a fair assumption.

and tbf to TSI without their involvement lasrtr january we wouldnt have won the championship and wouldnt even be in the prem.

This really is the end of 'The Reading Way' and the dawn of a new era! Melonhead and I in absolute agreement again!

[jellytot]

Sandman and all the other w*nker inferiority complex fans we have out. Go on, f*ck off and watch Oxford or something if you like watching third rate football and harking back to the 'good old days' so much.

+1

+2

[sandman]

LOL at anyone who agrees with RoyaLOLee about anything. Especially when it's over a wind up.

Still, might get to 10 pages yet.

[West Stand Man]

Just to pick up on a point I think has been banded about on here and certainly by Mick Gooding on Radio Berks last weekend, was that McDermott overacheived last year because he didn't have one of the bigger budgets in the division.

Our wage bill last season was about £25m. That was most likely one of the top 3 or 4 budgets last season (in fact it's only slightly less than 'reckless spenders' QPR's the year they went up!).

The collated figures for 2011/12 aren't available yet, but certainly the season before we had the 4th largest Championship wage bill, according to Deloitte Annual Review of Football Finance ...

1.   Middlesboro   40.938M
2.   QPR               29,739
3.   Hull               21.209
4.   Reading        20.511
5.   Burnley         19.392
6.   Norwich        18.445
7.   Sheff Weds   17.392
8.   Sheff Utd      17,794
9.   Ipswich         17.552
10.   Leeds          16.960
11.  Forest         16.555 

So we're agreed that he overachieved in winning the division, then?

No, we don't agree. Nowhere can I find a reference to wage bills defining the league position you hold.

While on this point, it is also a load of bull to say that other teams played better football than us last year and that they deserved to finish above us (as stated on other threads). To the best of my knowledge the aim of the game is to score more goals than your opposition. By doing so you win games. By winning games you get league points and by getting the most points in a season you win the league. Thus, it is clear that we were the best team in the Championship last season and that we played the best football.

We may not have played the most attractive football and the purists may find that upsetting, but by all normal measures we were the best team at doing what is required in the league.

This season, therefore, it is equally clear that we are one of the 2 worst teams (so far) and that is why we are probably going to be relegated.

[Ian Royal]

The correlation between wage bills and finishing position is very high in football. Although being fourth (taking the previous season's list) in the wage table doesn't mean finishing first in the actual table is a big over-achievement. A small one perhaps, but with that sort of wage level you can reasonably expect to achieve promotion, or get damn close to it.

[MouldyRoyal]

We had the fourth highest wage bill in the season we came 5th, no real surprise is it? We'd have had probably the 3rd biggest last season I'd have guessed (behind West Ham and A N Other, probs Brum).

[melonhead]

im not sure on that wage bill correlation


it may be that higher wages result in more success, but could it not simply be that succesful teams end up paying their players more money?
which comes first and causes the other is up in the air imo

[AirRaidSiren]

I see the numbers are dwindling rapidly on wanting Anton out now?

The club looks in great shape, there's so much positivity around, a very good signing already, more to come. Very little negativity if any at all.

If this is the new Reading 'way', then bring it on.

[littlejohnnyoster]

Agreed! ironically, considering the relegation, this is the most positive i've felt at the start of a season for yonks