SJM - Minutes silence vs Liverpool

[No Fixed Abode]

And I still maintain that stance. It is very hard to bring evidence against individuals in a crowd situation like Hillsborough. So, there is no option to exonerate all Liverpool fans. Does that mean, no fans were trying to jib in? Does that mean no fans were pushing and shoving and acting in an irresponsible manner that day? No it doesn't. Like I said, you have to be totally naive to think otherwise.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

AK - I have little knowledge of the situation and tried to find out more by starting the thread in General Football which descended in to a bit of a farce!

Did the report accept that Liverpool fans rushed the entrances to get in? An act that all fans of all clubs would have done in the circumstances? Or, did it say that there was no attempt at unauthorised entry?

I know today in some cases fans try to get in to games without tickets from all of the top clubs where tickets are in short supply.

(Not a loaded question). Not intentionally anyway!

PM answer if you wish.

I can answer that ....

There was a crowd outside close to kick-off, and the police chief paniced and opened the gate outside. So the mass of people outside rushed in en masse.

Inside there were three tunnels to the enclosures, but no signage and no-one directing anyone to the two outer enclosures, which were half empty - so everyone rushed into the middle pen which was already over-full and surrounded by fences.

There were many other factors - but the Hillsborough Independent Panel confirmed that the crowd that day was not to blame in any way for the deaths, or that they acted in any way different to how another crowd in similar circumstances would have acted.

[No Fixed Abode]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37Cmzvt549Y

Deary me.

You're a WUM if you can't understand their hate for her. Fcuk off on to a Chelsea board!

Why don't they celebrate and sing when one of the convicted Liverpool fans who killed the 39 Juve fans die?

[Alexander Litvinenko]

And I still maintain that stance. It is very hard to bring evidence against individuals in a crowd situation like Hillsborough. So, there is no option to exonerate all Liverpool fans. Does that mean, no fans were trying to jib in? Does that mean no fans were pushing and shoving and acting in an irresponsible manner that day? No it doesn't. Like I said, you have to be totally naive to think otherwise.

Here we go again. It''s a broken record ....

You're quite right - Liverpool fans did cause the disaster - in as much that if they'd not gone there that day there';d have been no disaster.

But it has categorically been stated by the HIP that the behaviour of the crowd and individual members within it that day was no different from what could be expected from a crowd of that size under those circumstances.

[sandman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37Cmzvt549Y

Why don't they celebrate and sing when one of the convicted Liverpool fans who killed the 39 Juve fans die?

Don't know mate. They'll be in Reading on Saturday, why don't you ask them?

[Anfield Kopite]

AK - I have little knowledge of the situation and tried to find out more by starting the thread in General Football which descended in to a bit of a farce!

Did the report accept that Liverpool fans rushed the entrances to get in? An act that all fans of all clubs would have done in the circumstances? Or, did it say that there was no attempt at unauthorised entry?

I know today in some cases fans try to get in to games without tickets from all of the top clubs where tickets are in short supply.

(Not a loaded question). Not intentionally anyway!

PM answer if you wish.

It wasn't a case of rushing to get in TSW. The lack of organisation in comparison to the season before (Same venue,also FA cup semi final, same opponents) meant that thousands of Liverpool fans were left in a small concourse area with nowhere near enough turnstyles to cope. Sheffield Wednesday did not even have a safety certificate and this was one of the reasons why. There was a crush outside to the extent a police horse was actually raised off the ground (absolutely terrifying). The police made a decision to open a concertina gate (quite understandable). However, once the gate was open, a sign said Leppings Lane terrace over a tunnel. This lead to the 2 central pens which were already full to capacity. If someone was directing the fans to the side pens the tragedy would have been avoided. The fans just entered because Leppings Lane terrace was what was printed on their tickets. This is a very simplistic explanation but a simple google search for Hillsborough Independent Panel findings will show the evidence in great detail that all Liverpool fans were innocent

[No Fixed Abode]

And I still maintain that stance. It is very hard to bring evidence against individuals in a crowd situation like Hillsborough. So, there is no option to exonerate all Liverpool fans. Does that mean, no fans were trying to jib in? Does that mean no fans were pushing and shoving and acting in an irresponsible manner that day? No it doesn't. Like I said, you have to be totally naive to think otherwise.

Here we go again. It''s a broken record ....

You're quite right - Liverpool fans did cause the disaster - in as much that if they'd not gone there that day there';d have been no disaster.

But it has categorically been stated by the HIP that the behaviour of the crowd and individual members within it that day was no different from what could be expected from a crowd of that size under those circumstances.

Still doesn't make it right though does it?

[Alexander Litvinenko]

And I still maintain that stance. It is very hard to bring evidence against individuals in a crowd situation like Hillsborough. So, there is no option to exonerate all Liverpool fans. Does that mean, no fans were trying to jib in? Does that mean no fans were pushing and shoving and acting in an irresponsible manner that day? No it doesn't. Like I said, you have to be totally naive to think otherwise.

Here we go again. It''s a broken record ....

You're quite right - Liverpool fans did cause the disaster - in as much that if they'd not gone there that day there';d have been no disaster.

But it has categorically been stated by the HIP that the behaviour of the crowd and individual members within it that day was no different from what could be expected from a crowd of that size under those circumstances.

Still doesn't make it right though does it?

If that's the logic if makes every match-going supporter in the 1980s just as guilty.

[Anfield Kopite]

And I still maintain that stance. It is very hard to bring evidence against individuals in a crowd situation like Hillsborough. So, there is no option to exonerate all Liverpool fans. Does that mean, no fans were trying to jib in? Does that mean no fans were pushing and shoving and acting in an irresponsible manner that day? No it doesn't. Like I said, you have to be totally naive to think otherwise.

I was there you utter Prick. Read the report. It has nothing to do with difficulty in bringing evidence against individuals. You can read Cant you Kes ? Do it.

[No Fixed Abode]

And I still maintain that stance. It is very hard to bring evidence against individuals in a crowd situation like Hillsborough. So, there is no option to exonerate all Liverpool fans. Does that mean, no fans were trying to jib in? Does that mean no fans were pushing and shoving and acting in an irresponsible manner that day? No it doesn't. Like I said, you have to be totally naive to think otherwise.

I was there you utter Prick. Read the report. It has nothing to do with difficulty in bringing evidence against individuals. You can read Cant you Kes ? Do it.

Very good AK - resorting to name calling.

I have a very good friend who is a Liverpool season ticket holder who WAS THERE. He's the one who told me some Liverpool fans were acting up that day. Of course, you're right, that IS expected in a crowd situation. BUT it still doesn't make their behaviour right does it?

[Anfield Kopite]

And I still maintain that stance. It is very hard to bring evidence against individuals in a crowd situation like Hillsborough. So, there is no option to exonerate all Liverpool fans. Does that mean, no fans were trying to jib in? Does that mean no fans were pushing and shoving and acting in an irresponsible manner that day? No it doesn't. Like I said, you have to be totally naive to think otherwise.

I was there you utter Prick. Read the report. It has nothing to do with difficulty in bringing evidence against individuals. You can read Cant you Kes ? Do it.

Very good AK - resorting to name calling.

I have a very good friend who is a Liverpool season ticket holder who WAS THERE. He's the one who told me some Liverpool fans were acting up that day. Of course, you're right, that IS expected in a crowd situation. BUT it still doesn't make their behaviour right does it?

I only called you an Utter Prick because, when it comes to this matter you act like one. The people outside the ground didn't have enough room to 'play up'. Once inside they didn't have enough room to breathe. Read the report.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

And I still maintain that stance. It is very hard to bring evidence against individuals in a crowd situation like Hillsborough. So, there is no option to exonerate all Liverpool fans. Does that mean, no fans were trying to jib in? Does that mean no fans were pushing and shoving and acting in an irresponsible manner that day? No it doesn't. Like I said, you have to be totally naive to think otherwise.

I was there you utter Prick. Read the report. It has nothing to do with difficulty in bringing evidence against individuals. You can read Cant you Kes ? Do it.

Very good AK - resorting to name calling.

I have a very good friend who is a Liverpool season ticket holder who WAS THERE. He's the one who told me some Liverpool fans were acting up that day. Of course, you're right, that IS expected in a crowd situation. BUT it still doesn't make their behaviour right does it?

It doesn't make it right or wrong - it just makes it normal. The only people trying to attach labels to it are those who are trying to prove some point known only to themselves.

The fact that people behave they way they do means that grounds have to be designed and managed to take their behaviour into account. If they oxf*rd up with this as spectacularly as they did that day then people are liable to die.

It really is as simple as that.

[No Fixed Abode]

Yes and I've not argued against that. It's people's behaviour in general which needs educating.

When I get on the tube and there is clearly no more room to get on, you will always get a few people trying to push on regardless of anyone else, just so they don't have to wait 5 mins for the next one......do we blame the tube authorities for that, or is it the impatient commuters fault?

[Alexander Litvinenko]

Yes and I've not argued against that. It's people's behaviour in general which needs educating.

When I get on the tube and there is clearly no more room to get on, you will always get a few people trying to push on regardless of anyone else, just so they don't have to wait 5 mins for the next one......do we blame the tube authorities for that, or is it the impatient commuters fault?

We recognise that it's the way people behave, and so we design and manage tubes and their safety systems to take that into account.

[No Fixed Abode]

Yes and I've not argued against that. It's people's behaviour in general which needs educating.

When I get on the tube and there is clearly no more room to get on, you will always get a few people trying to push on regardless of anyone else, just so they don't have to wait 5 mins for the next one......do we blame the tube authorities for that, or is it the impatient commuters fault?

We recognise that it's the way people behave, and so we design and manage tubes and their safety systems to take that into account.

Yep - but measures in place doesn't account for some peoples behaviour and still results in people getting injured.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

Strange how some topics are guaranteed troll-magnets, isn't it?

[P!ssed Off]

I'm fairly new here, could someone please explain how I go about blocking Ideal?
He really is the most offensive person I have ever come in to contact with and I no longer wish to see his idiotic, offensive posts every 5 minutes.

Didn't quote Ideal out of respect for those who have already blocked him

[philM]

if everyone jumped off a bridge or cut their balls off, would you do it too then?

If everybody was doing that then probably yes. It would by then obviously be the least worst fate, maybe when we were being pursued along a road by alien monsters (and the bridge is fairly low), and when the air is infected by a killer alien bug that gains access to your body via your testicles.

Otherwise I doubt everybody would be doing it.

[Anfield Kopite]

If there were nobody doing the squishing, nobody would get squished to death. Simple as that.
Someone has to be doing the squishing.

They should have been more considerate, and less people would have died. And don't give me that shit that "everyone does it", well if everyone jumped off a bridge or cut their balls off, would you do it too then?

Nobody was deliberately doing the squishing you complete moron. The people entering the terracing had no reason to believe it was already full. They had tickets for the leppings lane terraces and the sign above the tunnel said lepping lane terrace. They did not realise that this terracing was divided into 4 pens and they could enter any because it did not say this on their tickets, The pens 1 and 4 were almost empty, the 2 central pens already full. The police opened a gate allowing thousands to enter at once. They entered an already full pen crushing the people at the front. By the time they realised it was full they couldn't get out because thousands more behind were doing exactly the same. Have you ever tried to go in one direction when hundreds in an enclosed tunnel space are coming the opposite way ? Stewards or police stationed at the front of the tunnel pointing people to the side pens could have prevented the loss of life. I understand that people from other clubs are sick to death at "moaning scousers not letting it drop" but we have known the truth for all these years and even now after the results of the panel have been published you get idiots like Ideal and NFA pointing the finger.

[No Fixed Abode]

If there were nobody doing the squishing, nobody would get squished to death. Simple as that.
Someone has to be doing the squishing.

They should have been more considerate, and less people would have died. And don't give me that shit that "everyone does it", well if everyone jumped off a bridge or cut their balls off, would you do it too then?

Nobody was deliberately doing the squishing you complete moron. The people entering the terracing had no reason to believe it was already full. They had tickets for the leppings lane terraces and the sign above the tunnel said lepping lane terrace. They did not realise that this terracing was divided into 4 pens and they could enter any because it did not say this on their tickets, The pens 1 and 4 were almost empty, the 2 central pens already full. The police opened a gate allowing thousands to enter at once. They entered an already full pen crushing the people at the front. By the time they realised it was full they couldn't get out because thousands more behind were doing exactly the same. Have you ever tried to go in one direction when hundreds in an enclosed tunnel space are coming the opposite way ? Stewards or police stationed at the front of the tunnel pointing people to the side pens could have prevented the loss of life. I understand that people from other clubs are sick to death at "moaning scousers not letting it drop" but we have known the truth for all these years and even now after the results of the panel have been published you get idiots like Ideal and NFA pointing the finger.

Not disputing what went on in the ground. Outside the ground is where the problem started.