PETITION - Away Ticket Pricing

[handbags_harris]

I do. Typically the pattern would be go with parents and be around the Tilehurst End or the angle of South Bank/Tilehurst End.
.

You could see them at most games, bored with the on-field action, playing there own games of football with a plastic cup on empty parts of the terracing.

Waiting for the bloke with the sweets tray to make his way round.

no pedalo.... I hope

One of the lads doing the South Bank round was Dave Corder in the later years. I used to go to school with him. Never got any free chocolate though, the b*stard.

[Lower West]

If I bought Bayern Munich I would ask my finance people what the best price was to achieve highest profit. I wouldn't give a shit what the fans said as long as I was making the maximum amount of money possible.

A standing season ticket at Bayern costs just £105. I repeat a £105...........

Commercial revenue is used to subsidise ticket prices.

English football is about fleecing the fans. Man Utd is a soul less brand now.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

Just for the record :

Borussia Dortmund:
No price categorisation:
Standing: €15.30 (£13.30)
Cheapest seat: €29 (£25.22)
Most expensive seat: €50 (£43.48)

Bayern Munich
Category A & B
Category A prices:
Standing €15 (£13.04)
Cheapest seat: €35 (£30.43)
Most expensive seat: €70 (£60.86)

Those prices include public transport between the city centre and ground and back...

[City of London Royal]

Secondly with regard to non league, there's an interesting blog post here http://www.thefootballramble.com/indepth/entry/the-myth-of-non-league-affordability which sums it up rather nicely. Is paying £18 to watch Luton, £12 to watch Welling, Sutton United or Hayes & Yeading really better value than £40 to watch Reading at Fulham? I love the non league but I'm really not convinced.

IT depends how you define "value". If you want to factor quality into it, then it becomes trickier, but when people just fancy going to match now and then, £12 admission makes it a far cheaper day out than £45 for a premier league game - far more so if you fancy going almost every week.

You have to factor some sort of "value" into it - if watching a game of football was all that mattered you could just go to your local park.

But yes you're correct in so much as £12 is a cheaper day out than £45.

[soggy biscuit]

with regard to non league, there's an interesting blog post here http://www.thefootballramble.com/indepth/entry/the-myth-of-non-league-affordability which sums it up rather nicely. Is paying £18 to watch Luton, £12 to watch Welling, Sutton United or Hayes & Yeading really better value than £40 to watch Reading at Fulham? I love the non league but I'm really not convinced.

'Value' is hard to measure in sport because it is about personal enjoyment and that can differ week to week without anyone knowing in advance

£12 to watch Welling on the last day of the season where a win sends them up and they are 3-2 down going into injury time after an enthralling match and score 2 injury time goals to win > end of season £40 Fulham Vs Reading where no one can be bothered including fans and players and there is nothing riding on the result and it ends in a boring 0-0

£40 to watch Fulham V's Reading where the winner gets 4th spot and a Champions League place and it is 4-4 going into injury time after a brilliant match and Federici scores with a 25 yard overhead kick in the 95th minute to win > £12 end of season Welling V somerandomteamthatnoonecaresabout ending in a boring 0-0 where the result never mattered

£250 to see Reading win the Champions League final > all of the above

[Terminal Boardom]

For once, an interesting thread with good arguments and discussion all round.

It's a drug at the end of the day. You get your fortnightly fix of going through the same routine every home game as if you are in a trance. Take the same route to the ground, see the same people all in the hope that your team wins. The result will make or break the week ahead. This was certainly the case for me up until a few years back. Sadly, the cost of a ticket, coupled with the additional costs didn't help. On top of that, the attitude of certain stewards made the concept of showing the remotest flicker of passion to be at risk of being thrown out. I am not talking vein bulging passion, more the exasperation of a chance going begging. Then, the quality of the football deteriorated, costs kept increasing and the desire started to wane. I would get home after a game and win, lose or draw, I just did not get any feeling of satisfaction or enjoyment.

So i made the switch to non league football, at step 5 and I love it. Meeting people from all walks of life with a genuine love of the game. Wherever I have been, I have always been made welcome and appreciated. Far more so than within thebprofessional ranks. What's more is that more families are watching non league football as it is a far cheaper day out for the family. Does a 6 or 7 year old care if it's Wayne Rooney or Walter Scroggins? Probably not as he or she will be looking under leaves and stones to see whats there.

Ado I miss the Mad Stad? Not one iota. Do I enjoy my football more than I have in many years? Easily. Is it for everyone? Of course not but we all have freedom of speech and freedom of choice.

[sandman]

Can't think of anything worse than standing in a shed watching semi pro cloggers wade around in mud tbh. Plus there's a hint of Torch and Pitchfork wielding local weirdo's about non-league fans. Each to their own I suppose.

[City of London Royal]

with regard to non league, there's an interesting blog post here http://www.thefootballramble.com/indepth/entry/the-myth-of-non-league-affordability which sums it up rather nicely. Is paying £18 to watch Luton, £12 to watch Welling, Sutton United or Hayes & Yeading really better value than £40 to watch Reading at Fulham? I love the non league but I'm really not convinced.

'Value' is hard to measure in sport because it is about personal enjoyment and that can differ week to week without anyone knowing in advance

You know quite a lot in advance - which is why attendances (and increasingly pricing) vary so much throughout the season. Some call it cherry picking, but unless you go to every game why would you prioritise watching your team play Stoke?

[Alexander Litvinenko]

with regard to non league, there's an interesting blog post here http://www.thefootballramble.com/indepth/entry/the-myth-of-non-league-affordability which sums it up rather nicely. Is paying £18 to watch Luton, £12 to watch Welling, Sutton United or Hayes & Yeading really better value than £40 to watch Reading at Fulham? I love the non league but I'm really not convinced.

'Value' is hard to measure in sport because it is about personal enjoyment and that can differ week to week without anyone knowing in advance

You know quite a lot in advance - which is why attendances (and increasingly pricing) vary so much throughout the season. Some call it cherry picking, but unless you go to every game why would you prioritise watching your team play Stoke?

That is a trend that is most definitely happening. The average number of games that supporters attend is going down, as they pick more and which ones to go to.

But it's not just on economic grounds - even for season ticket holders, the number of matches attended seems to be going down. Maybe it's the time, cost and overall hassle of getting to games, but even those with tickets are tending to reduce the number they go to.

At this stage I'll introduce some evidence - the difference between "official" attendance figures and "actual" number at the ground - for Old Trafford, and obtained via FOI requests. (The PL make their clubs announce attendence as "tickets sold", rather than people through "the turnstiles" - all for PR reasons, of course.)

http://redsaway.com/2013/04/revealed-how-many-people-actually-go-to-old-trafford/

Date    Opponents    Actual attendance given by GMP    Official attendance given by MUFC
25-Aug-12    Fulham    66,005    75,352
15-Sep-12    Wigan Athletic    66,686    75,142
29-Sep-12    Tottenham Hotspur    68,072    75,566
20-Oct-12    Stoke City    64,722    75,585
03-Nov-12    Arsenal    69,077    75,492
24-Nov-12    Queens Park Rangers    64,452    75,603
28-Nov-12    West Ham United    62,304    75,572
15-Dec-12    Sunderland    64,294    75,582
26-Dec-12    Newcastle United    64,996    75,596
29-Dec-12    West Bromwich Albion    66,847    75,595
13-Jan-13    Liverpool    69,933    75,501
30-Jan-13    Southampton    59,766    75,600
10-Feb-13    Everton    68,123    75,525
02-Mar-13    Norwich City    66,238    75,586
16-Mar-13    Reading    62,493    75,605

I acknowledge that things are complicated at Old Trafford because of the compulsory cup purchase scheme, but a similar pattern seems to be happening at all clubs, and the bigger the club the more pronounced it seems. It's rife at Arsenal too.

[Terminal Boardom]

That is a trend that is most definitely happening. The average number of games that supporters attend is going down, as they pick more and which ones to go to.

But it's not just on economic grounds - even for season ticket holders, the number of matches attended seems to be going down. Maybe it's the time, cost and overall hassle of getting to games, but even those with tickets are tending to reduce the number they go to.

At this stage I'll introduce some evidence - the difference between "official" attendance figures and "actual" number at the ground - for Old Trafford, and obtained via FOI requests. (The PL make their clubs announce attendence as "tickets sold", rather than people through "the turnstiles" - all for PR reasons, of course.)

http://redsaway.com/2013/04/revealed-how-many-people-actually-go-to-old-trafford/

Date    Opponents    Actual attendance given by GMP    Official attendance given by MUFC
25-Aug-12    Fulham    66,005    75,352
15-Sep-12    Wigan Athletic    66,686    75,142
29-Sep-12    Tottenham Hotspur    68,072    75,566
20-Oct-12    Stoke City    64,722    75,585
03-Nov-12    Arsenal    69,077    75,492
24-Nov-12    Queens Park Rangers    64,452    75,603
28-Nov-12    West Ham United    62,304    75,572
15-Dec-12    Sunderland    64,294    75,582
26-Dec-12    Newcastle United    64,996    75,596
29-Dec-12    West Bromwich Albion    66,847    75,595
13-Jan-13    Liverpool    69,933    75,501
30-Jan-13    Southampton    59,766    75,600
10-Feb-13    Everton    68,123    75,525
02-Mar-13    Norwich City    66,238    75,586
16-Mar-13    Reading    62,493    75,605

I acknowledge that things are complicated at Old Trafford because of the compulsory cup purchase scheme, but a similar pattern seems to be happening at all clubs, and the bigger the club the more pronounced it seems. It's rife at Arsenal too.

And how much would be to ensure that the tax man gets his fair share? I remember at Elm Park howls of derision when the attendance was announced. The number of times they said the crowd was considerably higher or lower than we all thought.

[soggy biscuit]

Would be interesting to see where the PL and Championship sit in terms of total attendances compared to other countries when you base it on the real figures.

Championship gets lauded as the 4th most watched league in terms of total attendances. I wonder how far down it would drop if the truth were told.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

.....
And how much would be to ensure that the tax man gets his fair share? I remember at Elm Park howls of derision when the attendance was announced. The number of times they said the crowd was considerably higher or lower than we all thought.

I don't think it's particularly relevant to tax, as the vast majority of the ticket sales are Season Tickets, obviously purchased at/before the start end of the season and so the VAT for them is payable in a different tax period, rather than on a match-by-match basis.

And as furether evidence that it's not for tax reasons, the Football League allows its clubs to report attendance as they prefer - "tickets sold" or "people present". The PL doesn't give clubs that choice - it says its clubs *must* report attendance as "tickets sold." This can only be because they're trying to perpetuate the "best league in the world" myth.

BTW, Reading used to report attendances as "people there" (*) up to 2006, when they were made to change, and they've never gone back.


(*) Except in the days of Mike Lewis .......

[Alexander Litvinenko]

Those stats are all from 2012.

Do you have the same stats from say 2004? Without a comparable, they're pointless?

It could be that more people are actually attending, we have nothing to compare against.

But I'm not trying to make a comparison. I'm just producing stats to support someone else's argument that supporters are being picky about which games they go to - potentially more picky than they used to.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

Also, potentially less.

I didn't realise you weren't trying to draw comparisons though. Equally, it would be interesting to see those stats from another year to see if it does support the "more picky" theory.

Agree with that. The reasons I think it's more likely is that as football is more high-profile and some matches are so much bigger then it's more likely that some people either buy a ST only for bigger games or that they're less interested in the games against less prestigious opposition.

Plus let's not forget the influence that TV fixture changes has, together with the increase is overall grief and hassle to get to games these days. Season ticket holders do live further from home grounds than ever before, on average - and the bigger the club the more likely they are to do so. (I could dredge up figures for this if required, but I hope everyone would agree it's pretty self-evident).

[Alexander Litvinenko]

I'll just leave this here, because it sums things up perfectly :

[MouldyRoyal]

Whilst that may be a true for Bayern, I'd say £2m is still a big deal for us. Maybe not now, assuming AZ is willing to debt fund us, but under the last years of SJM's reign that would directly have affected transfers.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

It''s a bigger deal, yes, but also our outgoings are correspondingly less than Bayern's.

It's not the figures that are important, though - the point I was trying to make is the state of mind behind it and the attitude toward supporters it shows, which is a million miles away from what we have here.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

That is a trend that is most definitely happening. The average number of games that supporters attend is going down, as they pick more and which ones to go to.

But it's not just on economic grounds - even for season ticket holders, the number of matches attended seems to be going down. Maybe it's the time, cost and overall hassle of getting to games, but even those with tickets are tending to reduce the number they go to.

At this stage I'll introduce some evidence - the difference between "official" attendance figures and "actual" number at the ground - for Old Trafford, and obtained via FOI requests. (The PL make their clubs announce attendence as "tickets sold", rather than people through "the turnstiles" - all for PR reasons, of course.)

http://redsaway.com/2013/04/revealed-how-many-people-actually-go-to-old-trafford/

Date    Opponents    Actual attendance given by GMP    Official attendance given by MUFC
25-Aug-12    Fulham    66,005    75,352
15-Sep-12    Wigan Athletic    66,686    75,142
29-Sep-12    Tottenham Hotspur    68,072    75,566
20-Oct-12    Stoke City    64,722    75,585
03-Nov-12    Arsenal    69,077    75,492
24-Nov-12    Queens Park Rangers    64,452    75,603
28-Nov-12    West Ham United    62,304    75,572
15-Dec-12    Sunderland    64,294    75,582
26-Dec-12    Newcastle United    64,996    75,596
29-Dec-12    West Bromwich Albion    66,847    75,595
13-Jan-13    Liverpool    69,933    75,501
30-Jan-13    Southampton    59,766    75,600
10-Feb-13    Everton    68,123    75,525
02-Mar-13    Norwich City    66,238    75,586
16-Mar-13    Reading    62,493    75,605

I acknowledge that things are complicated at Old Trafford because of the compulsory cup purchase scheme, but a similar pattern seems to be happening at all clubs, and the bigger the club the more pronounced it seems. It's rife at Arsenal too.

And how much would be to ensure that the tax man gets his fair share? I remember at Elm Park howls of derision when the attendance was announced. The number of times they said the crowd was considerably higher or lower than we all thought.

Apparently Greater Manchester police have said those figures are a load of tosh, and never gave out any such information.

It stands to reason really. 13000 empty seats, even at Old Trafford, would be glaringly obvious.


While there were some very dodgy Elm Park crowd figures, where you'd see 5000 for someone like Shrewsbury who'd bring 150, and barely over 6000 at the next game when Sunderland would have 2500, I'm not sure I can recall any crowd figures that looked too high.

[soggy biscuit]

13000 empty seats, even at Old Trafford, would be glaringly obvious

Which I think it sometimes is. When the camera pans out you can often see quite a few empty seats and I would imagine the ones higher up, that we don't usually see on camera, would be even more likely to be empty. only needs 1 in every 6 to be empty for that figure to be accurate

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

13000 empty seats, even at Old Trafford, would be glaringly obvious

Which I think it sometimes is. When the camera pans out you can often see quite a few empty seats and I would imagine the ones higher up, that we don't usually see on camera, would be even more likely to be empty. only needs 1 in every 6 to be empty for that figure to be accurate

As I already said though, the Greater Manchester police have already dismissed claims that the figures are genuine.

1 in 6 would the equivalent of the Madejski with 4000 empty seats. I think Sunday's crowd might have just managed that, and there's no way (last 5-10 minutes excepted) that Old Trafford is that empty.