Confimred new owners of Raeding Footbal Club

[Vision]

This is the bit I struggle a bit with though. Aside from the obvious disappointment after relegation I don't see why fans would be more jaded now than the last time we got relegated.

Go back two years on here to the takeover and I really don't see what lead people to believe we were suddenly going to gatecrash English football's elite. The vast majority of talk was of business as usual and how we would continue to be run on sensible lines but with some added investment. Sure there was the odd fanciful statement went pressed about what could be achieved and what they hoped to achieve but nothing that any new owners of any club doesn't say. JM chucked his oft quoted "deep pockets" line into the mix as well but after 20 years I'd have thought most of us know to take his public utterances with a pinch of salt.

No question Pog and Drenthe were Anton fantasy signings although the former is arguably our best player this season and as such makes sense. Equally giving Federici who was one of the best keepers in the championship (and at the time up there as one of our most saleable assets) a lengthy contract made sense at the time. Roberts with hindsight was a mistake (which is why our previous policy of only giving only 1 year deals to older players was correct despite some people moaning about that too) but again logically he has great experience of relegation battles and also gaining championship promotion so it wasn't that left field a deal.

Again I don't think our situation is that much different to 08/09. If we don't bounce back then we will need follow JM's cloth cutting mantra but it's not like we#re QPR and massively overcommitted on a huge squad of older premiership wage players with little or no sell on value. If we were then I'd be worried but we're not.

Ultimately we're in pretty much the same position as we were at this exact point two years ago when TSI were about to take over. Granted the current wage bill is significantly higher but equally we have another 3 seasons of parachute money to ease any transition that might be needed. Since then we've had the rollercoaster of promotion.relegation, a season of top flight football and who knows possibly another promotion campaign to look forward to. Add to that the continual improvement of the Academy then I genuinely don't think it's been too bad a tenure.

In the end I think Anton never really quite grasped what running a football club at the highest level of English football was all about. He's introduced some good things here and made mistakes but probably realised that the reality as was too much for his more fanciful ideas. He wouldn't be alone in that though. JM knew it too which is why TSI came on board in the first place.

It's certainly frustrating at this precise moment in time because the uncertainty means we don't appear able to provide the impetus that could propel us into a very successful season but in the overall scheme of things there's far more to be happy with than pissed off about.

Agree with most of this, Vision, perhaps with the exception of your first sentence: I can sympathise as to why fans may feel more jaded following the latest relegation - and that's because it appeared we learnt sod all from being in the PL first time around and made exactly the same mistakes (which to be fair, is something RFC have admitted to)

What hits home to me though is the complete paradox I and probably many others find myself in. My dilemma is that I hate and despise what the PL stands for and what it has done to football in this country - yet I want us to be there. It's a circle I just cannot square no matter how hard I try and it keeps me from attending many matches and parting with my dwindling, hard-earned cash.

Oddly I don't think we made the "same" mistake second time around at all or certainly not exactly the same (this may be slightly pedantic). First time we went up we kept the same squad together without adding hardly anyone. Last time we bought quite a few players in (7 I think) and clearly McD couldn't find a way to integrate most of them into the starting lineup or we didn't have the time to bed them in (I think Palace did similiar this summer although with twice as many). I suppose the main mistake (and similiarity) was that we should have concentrated on maybe buying two maybe three bigger signings rather than the collection of highly rated Championship players that we did (Gunter,McCleary,Marriapa etc). the experienced premiership players we did bring in though (Guthrie,Pog) hardly did themselves justice or made that much of a difference though.

Even then though we simply don't have the financial backing even with TSI (or at the time the nucleus of a young improving squad) in order to do what Southampton did (being the 7th highest net spenders in the whole of Europe or something like that).

Like you I'm more than happy being in the Championship, seeing Academy players being blooded and having the chance of achieving promotion but I can take or leave the Premiership Circus frankly. Someone on here once said that the Premiership is the price you pay for promotion and I'm of the same mind really.

Of course there's a middle ground to be found between being careful and going too far over the top which we haven't yet managed to find in the Top Flight but that line between ambition and Financial meltdown becomes finer every season.

[Vision]

Not sure Palace are a good example, they're only in with a chance because of Pulis. They signed an entire new squad, some of which didn't even make the 25. If Holloway had've stayed they'd be down by now.

Then surely they are a good example?

Ironically they sacked a manager who wanted to play the type of passing football we're told is the only thing that will work in the Premiership for a bloke who plays it pretty direct long ball which we're told won't.

As always people seem to think there's a blueprint for success. If we did A. then we'd be ok, if we do B. we'll always fail. Thank oxf*rd there isn't though because if there was everyone would be doing it and life would be pretty boring.

[Extended-Phenotype]

Not sure Palace are a good example, they're only in with a chance because of Pulis. They signed an entire new squad, some of which didn't even make the 25. If Holloway had've stayed they'd be down by now.

Then surely they are a good example?

Ironically they sacked a manager who wanted to play the type of passing football we're told is the only thing that will work in the Premiership for a bloke who plays it pretty direct long ball which we're told won't.

As always people seem to think there's a blueprint for success. If we did A. then we'd be ok, if we do B. we'll always fail. Thank oxf*rd there isn't though because if there was everyone would be doing it and life would be pretty boring.

I think one nailed-on blueprint is to invest. Style/approach is debatable but which ever you go with needs to be carried out by players of the right quality.

[Vision]

Then surely they are a good example?

Ironically they sacked a manager who wanted to play the type of passing football we're told is the only thing that will work in the Premiership for a bloke who plays it pretty direct long ball which we're told won't.

As always people seem to think there's a blueprint for success. If we did A. then we'd be ok, if we do B. we'll always fail. Thank oxf*rd there isn't though because if there was everyone would be doing it and life would be pretty boring.

I think one nailed-on blueprint is to invest. Style/approach is debatable but which ever you go with needs to be carried out by players of the right quality.

We did invest though. It's the level of investment required if everyone else is also using the investment blueprint. Then there's how far do you go? We came up with Southampton who spent more than most of Europe. Should we have competed with that? No-one can say QPR didn't invest yet they were worse than us despite having 4 transfer windows to get it right.

Like I say there is a middle ground, Swansea are probably the obvious example, that we need to find but unless we've a Liebherr or a Fernandes which Anton/TSI patently weren't (nor claimed to be really) then the line between investment and meltdown is a very fine one. Personally I'm happy we don't dabble with that although I know many others disagree.

[Croydon Royal]

Oddly I don't think we made the "same" mistake second time around at all or certainly not exactly the same (this may be slightly pedantic). First time we went up we kept the same squad together without adding hardly anyone. Last time we bought quite a few players in (7 I think) and clearly McD couldn't find a way to integrate most of them into the starting lineup or we didn't have the time to bed them in (I think Palace did similiar this summer although with twice as many). I suppose the main mistake (and similiarity) was that we should have concentrated on maybe buying two maybe three bigger signings rather than the collection of highly rated Championship players that we did (Gunter,McCleary,Marriapa etc). the experienced premiership players we did bring in though (Guthrie,Pog) hardly did themselves justice or made that much of a difference though.

Even then though we simply don't have the financial backing even with TSI (or at the time the nucleus of a young improving squad) in order to do what Southampton did (being the 7th highest net spenders in the whole of Europe or something like that).

This is an interesting and important point. I'd argue we got great value for money in our pre-Prem signings - Gunter and Marriappa were both cheap for highly-rated Champ players, whilst we picked up 3 highly sought-after players on frees in Guthrie, Pog and Gunter. But sadly making signings because they represent good value for money will not keep you in the Premier League. What will is buying a couple of 'stellar' players with that extra bit of quality who can make differences in games and - ultimately - seasons. Of course it's more of a gamble...paying £12 million for an international player who doesn't settle can be very costly, but if you don't take that gamble at all then you're doomed. The seasons where a team stays up without any of those big money signings is incredibly rare (I often think a lot of the arguments on here are fueled because people still use the 05/06 team as a benchmark, when really it was a majorly rare occurrence where everything fell into place at once - few clubs have ever had that, let alone in living memory), so the only way round it is to pay through the nose to ensure you get a couple of 'difference makers'.

I laughed along with everyone else when Southampton paid £35 million on two players, but it helped them stay up. Wigan did it a couple of times - Heskey, N'Zogbia, Kone etc - and it kept them battling away in the league for ten years. Hull have done it with Huddlestone - paying a bit more than the expected price to ensure they landed him. It doesn't always work, and the teams that do it and go down end up right in the sh1tter, but if you don't do it at all then you don't have a chance. I hate the amount of money in the game, and love it when we get a bargain that comes off big time (again, we can't use '£70k - £7m Doyle' as a benchmark for every transfer!), but the fact our transfer record increased from £2.5m to £3m after we got promoted was always going to mean the team would have to perform miracles to stay up, when even the Southamptons, Fulhams and West Hams were spending £5 million+ on plenty of players.

[Extended-Phenotype]

I think one nailed-on blueprint is to invest. Style/approach is debatable but which ever you go with needs to be carried out by players of the right quality.

We did invest though. It's the level of investment required if everyone else is also using the investment blueprint. Then there's how far do you go? We came up with Southampton who spent more than most of Europe. Should we have competed with that? No-one can say QPR didn't invest yet they were worse than us despite having 4 transfer windows to get it right.

Like I say there is a middle ground, Swansea are probably the obvious example, that we need to find but unless we've a Liebherr or a Fernandes which Anton/TSI patently weren't (nor claimed to be really) then the line between investment and meltdown is a very fine one. Personally I'm happy we don't dabble with that although I know many others disagree.

I don't think the idea is simply spend more than other teams. I think the idea is to ensure you have all the pieces required to make a competitive team and that costs money. Did we have all the pieces? No. We had cheap fixes, inadequate pegs being hammered into the wrong shaped holes and largely relied on what we had, which many agreed wasn't exactly top drawer for the league below.

Southampton fared better because they had built a better team (and arguably manager), not because they just spent more money. It's that we should be aspiring to; it's like people forgetting what the purpose of investment is, when all they bang on about is the money. Spending is merely the means to an end and shouldn't be used as a benchmark or indicator.

"Club A spent loads and got relegated", "Club B spent less and stayed up" - that's the kind of stupid analysis you get when spending is used as an indicator. The reality is Club B built a good team when Club A didn't - it's nothing to do with the amount of money, but you will have to spend in order to achieve that goal. Reading FC simply didn't invest enough to build a competitive side, an opinion further vindicated by the fact that the same players still aren't that comfortable back in the championship this season.

[Wimb]

This is the bit I struggle a bit with though. Aside from the obvious disappointment after relegation I don't see why fans would be more jaded now than the last time we got relegated.

Go back two years on here to the takeover and I really don't see what lead people to believe we were suddenly going to gatecrash English football's elite. The vast majority of talk was of business as usual and how we would continue to be run on sensible lines but with some added investment. Sure there was the odd fanciful statement went pressed about what could be achieved and what they hoped to achieve but nothing that any new owners of any club doesn't say. JM chucked his oft quoted "deep pockets" line into the mix as well but after 20 years I'd have thought most of us know to take his public utterances with a pinch of salt.

No question Pog and Drenthe were Anton fantasy signings although the former is arguably our best player this season and as such makes sense. Equally giving Federici who was one of the best keepers in the championship (and at the time up there as one of our most saleable assets) a lengthy contract made sense at the time. Roberts with hindsight was a mistake (which is why our previous policy of only giving only 1 year deals to older players was correct despite some people moaning about that too) but again logically he has great experience of relegation battles and also gaining championship promotion so it wasn't that left field a deal.

Again I don't think our situation is that much different to 08/09. If we don't bounce back then we will need follow JM's cloth cutting mantra but it's not like we#re QPR and massively overcommitted on a huge squad of older premiership wage players with little or no sell on value. If we were then I'd be worried but we're not.

Ultimately we're in pretty much the same position as we were at this exact point two years ago when TSI were about to take over. Granted the current wage bill is significantly higher but equally we have another 3 seasons of parachute money to ease any transition that might be needed. Since then we've had the rollercoaster of promotion.relegation, a season of top flight football and who knows possibly another promotion campaign to look forward to. Add to that the continual improvement of the Academy then I genuinely don't think it's been too bad a tenure.

In the end I think Anton never really quite grasped what running a football club at the highest level of English football was all about. He's introduced some good things here and made mistakes but probably realised that the reality as was too much for his more fanciful ideas. He wouldn't be alone in that though. JM knew it too which is why TSI came on board in the first place.

It's certainly frustrating at this precise moment in time because the uncertainty means we don't appear able to provide the impetus that could propel us into a very successful season but in the overall scheme of things there's far more to be happy with than pissed off about.

Agree with most of this, Vision, perhaps with the exception of your first sentence: I can sympathise as to why fans may feel more jaded following the latest relegation - and that's because it appeared we learnt sod all from being in the PL first time around and made exactly the same mistakes (which to be fair, is something RFC have admitted to)

What hits home to me though is the complete paradox I and probably many others find myself in. My dilemma is that I hate and despise what the PL stands for and what it has done to football in this country - yet I want us to be there. It's a circle I just cannot square no matter how hard I try and it keeps me from attending many matches and parting with my dwindling, hard-earned cash.

^^^^sums it up for me perfectly

Some other great points from Croydon & Mr Optimist as well though.

I think when you get a change in ownership you expect a change in approach but while TSI had done Part A of their master plan (get promoted) and had lofty ambitions when we got to C (Europe, Stadium Expansion etc) they just never really showed that they had the desire and clout to do the hard graft you need in part B to get there (i.e back a manager with what he wants and be prepared to spend on quality rather than quantity)

What frustrated me the most was the January window last season, as mentioned we had a good chance to stay up and TSI utterly bottled it. I think now we know why (the money just wasn't there) but the pathetic attempts to justify it by saying 'we were close to Ince & Glyfi' is exactly what's wound up fans over the past 18 months. There's been a subliminal shift in the marketing and messages coming out of the club in the past two years to try and convince us we're taking big strides forward and have genuine ambition while at the same time operating in the same ways as before. That's raised expectations and it's probably why we're all a bit bummed, there were precious few attempts to keep us grounded.

Likwise if an owner wants to fund marquee personal signings like Pog and Drenthe great, but it came at the expense of building a balanced squad. Sources (believe of them what you will) have told how Brian handed Anton a list of targets he wanted to keep us up that included the likes of Clyne & Long but was told categorically there was no way we could fund them. I don't think the business we did in the summer of 2012 was awful but the more you look at them the less they seem like signings Brian wanted to keep a team in the league and more like the best we could do on a tight budget + Anton's own wish list.

If you're a ruthless club bent on ambition like Southampton, the sacking of McDermott makes a lot of sense but if in reality you're still operating within the same parameters as before then why dispense with him if you can't fund the Adkins revolution?

I'm not meaning that as an excuse to start a was sacking Brian the right decision debate (there's a 100 page thread elsewhere for that) but again it was just a sign of how TSI wanted us to get to a Part C without really having the guts for plan B.

Anyway I'm not sure if that's made much sense but I've been up for 13 hours now so excuse me

[Vision]

So maybe I've misread you there EP.

I got fed up debating with people about "investment" on here for precisely the reason you state. They were only talking about financial investment as opposed to investment in players in coaching,infrastructure,scouting and all the things that in the future help to build a better base.

Trouble is, building in that manner is difficult to do in the premiership where for over half the league survival each year is all that matters. But to what end? Just to go through the same thing again the following season. It's why Bolton are in the shit because all that mattered was the moment. It's also interesting that the two teams that are being held up as the way to do things are usually Swansea and Saints who both had to come from rock bottom in order to build what they have now. Even then though Swansea are feeling the threat of a relegation dogfight and Southampton only just survived last season.

You're right money spent is a stupid analysis which is precisely why I said there is no blueprint. But to simply say you get the right players in and build a better team is pretty obvious really. The question is how you do that. If you don't have the financial clout to attract the players you believe are the right ones (when your competitiors all think so too) then how do you go about doing it?

Last season we clearly decided that on top of a Championship winning team the best thing for us was to buy relatively young top end championship players added to a couple of players with Premiership experience. On paper there's no reason to suggest that wouldn't have built us a better team. Trouble is how early do you spot it's not going to work and what do you do about it. Do you act swiftly be it by changing manager or by attacking the January transfer window? Either way you're not thinking of "building" anything long term then just whatever short term fix you can find for survival. Who knows if we'd had a bash in January it might have saved us from relegation. Likewise sacking McD earlier or indeed keeping him might also have done the trick. Who knows? As it stands what we did didn't work so we will have to look at it another way but all 3 relegated sides last season had different aproaches and resources and it didn't work out for any of us.

As for aspiring to be Southampton well I think it's fair to say that to some degree we're getting there. Like their Academy ours has over the last couple of years started to regularly produce home grown players for the first team. I think like the work Cortese has done with Saints TSI have certainly tried to expand their scouting network much further afield than previously. In the end though or as far as last season is concerned ultimately they had financial backing to back all of that up. Something we didn't. Sometimes it does come down to having the financial clout to be able to get what you think will not only improve you but improve you to a level above umpteen other clubs all trying to do the same.

I don't know if I'm disagreeing with you really because I'm not entirely sure what it is you're saying other than lets be a better team. That's the end, its the means and manner in which you achieve that which doesn't come with a How To Do manual.

[Vision]

^^^^sums it up for me perfectly

Some other great points from Croydon & Mr Optimist as well though.

I think when you get a change in ownership you expect a change in approach but while TSI had done Part A of their master plan (get promoted) and had lofty ambitions when we got to C (Europe, Stadium Expansion etc) they just never really showed that they had the desire and clout to do the hard graft you need in part B to get there (i.e back a manager with what he wants and be prepared to spend on quality rather than quantity)


If you're a ruthless club bent on ambition like Southampton, the sacking of McDermott makes a lot of sense but if in reality you're still operating within the same parameters as before then why dispense with him if you can't fund the Adkins revolution?

I'm not meaning that as an excuse to start a was sacking Brian the right decision debate (there's a 100 page thread elsewhere for that) but again it was just a sign of how TSI wanted us to get to a Part C without really having the guts for plan B.

I'm not sure it was as much guts as knowhow and financial clout.

In the end I think it came down to Cortese >>>>Anton when it came down to identifying what was needed and being able to make it happen. I don't think Anton could do either.

Also FWIW I'm not sure Adkins had any more input into some of Saints signings as you suggest McD did with one or two of his.

[Extended-Phenotype]

Hugely disagree, mate. We didn’t invest enough. We didn’t have the depth upfront. We had no creativity in midfield, yet again. We struggled for quality and depth on the wing. Our defence was weak and inexperienced. We had no pace at LB and no real quality at RB. Come January, yappity-yapp with the promises but what was delivered? Some division two DM? What sort of investment is that and how does that help us?

You are speaking like we had a sound investment plan and were “unlucky”. From where I’m sitting we tried to do it as cheaply as possible and ended up with an unbalanced team of holes and inexperience.

I’m basically saying that the argument FOR investment is not about spending X amount of pounds, or spending more than your opponent. It’s about spending on good players and building a balanced side, and we failed to do that. Just like we are failing to build a balanced side now.

JM/AZ simply do not have the vision (sorry) or inclination to do things better and give us more of a chance.

[Royal Rother]

Real vision is not about the next 6 months, it's about the next 2, 3, 5-10+ years. Sensible owners care more about that than the here and now.

In 2 years time no-one will be fussed much over what happened in 2013 and 2014.

Steady investment in the infrastructure, preparing the ground and sowing the seeds (as it were) is more likely to generate a successful and secure club in 2020, than investment in finished articles now. And with far less risk.

By investing in the academy and training facilities that's what they have been doing.

[jellytot]

Interesting that Hobbs has not signed for Forest yet.. Also Bruce has said that they have offers from Forest, Wigan AND a SECOND offer from READING!

If we do not have new owners then how are we bidding? Maybe SJM is putting money up for this one?

[winchester_royal]

Real vision is not about the next 6 months, it's about the next 2, 3, 5-10+ years. Sensible owners care more about that than the here and now.

In 2 years time no-one will be fussed much over what happened in 2013 and 2014.

Steady investment in the infrastructure, preparing the ground and sowing the seeds (as it were) is more likely to generate a successful and secure club in 2020, than investment in finished articles now. And with far less risk.

By investing in the academy and training facilities that's what they have been doing.

This x10000, however frustrating it may be in the short run, prudent investment in areas that will give you a competitive advantage over a sustained period of time is by far the most sensible path to follow.

We 'invested' a decent amount into the playing squad last year, but the players we brought in were nowhere near the standard required, and the policy behind the recruitment was muddled at best.

[Brum Royal]

I've only really dipped in and out of this thread to see if there's been any news, but I have to say I have enjoyed reading this particular page (110), some well argued points all round.

[Extended-Phenotype]

Real vision is not about the next 6 months, it's about the next 2, 3, 5-10+ years. Sensible owners care more about that than the here and now.

In 2 years time no-one will be fussed much over what happened in 2013 and 2014.

Steady investment in the infrastructure, preparing the ground and sowing the seeds (as it were) is more likely to generate a successful and secure club in 2020, than investment in finished articles now. And with far less risk.

By investing in the academy and training facilities that's what they have been doing.

I don't see how or why an owner would not invest in both. No point having a fantastic academy generating great players for other clubs who are pushing higher and attracting better players. Smarter investment in players now, could see better returns and begin to establish a good reputation to build on in the future. Scraping up, investing f/ck all, getting walloped and slinking back down again to bubble rather insignificantly in the Championship doesn't seem that good a business strategy, even if you are palming the academy off as an excuse.

[Vision]

Hugely disagree, mate. We didn’t invest enough. We didn’t have the depth upfront. We had no creativity in midfield, yet again. We struggled for quality and depth on the wing. Our defence was weak and inexperienced. We had no pace at LB and no real quality at RB. Come January, yappity-yapp with the promises but what was delivered? Some division two DM? What sort of investment is that and how does that help us?

You are speaking like we had a sound investment plan and were “unlucky”. From where I’m sitting we tried to do it as cheaply as possible and ended up with an unbalanced team of holes and inexperience.

I’m basically saying that the argument FOR investment is not about spending X amount of pounds, or spending more than your opponent. It’s about spending on good players and building a balanced side, and we failed to do that. Just like we are failing to build a balanced side now.

JM/AZ simply do not have the vision (sorry) or inclination to do things better and give us more of a chance.

So you are talking about financial investment then. Whether you like it or not, what other teams spend does have an effect on what we can afford and might require.

And what you're talking about now is the January window as opposed to the summer windows which is what I was referring to as the one where you aim to build your better team for the season. In January you're just desperately trying to throw the dice and hope you can find a player or players that can hit the ground running.

I'm not arguing that we got it wrong I'm saying that getting it right isn't as simple as simply saying invest in a better squad/team which we certainly did try and do in the summer if not in January.

Maybe I just don't get as irate as others at the Club because I don't expect much from them anyway. I don't take much of what is said seriously because for the most part moden football is either entirely self congratulary mutual masturbation or PR bollocks. As long as they're not entirely reprehensible human beings, don't put the future of my club at risk and seem to have a vague idea of what they're doing then I'm ok with it.

I'm in danger of repeating myself ad nauseam so this is the last I'll say on this for now but aside from not quite finding a way to crack the dielmna of sustaining top flight football without veering away from the prudent approach (which like it or not is actually the club's football mantra far more often than the more fanciful statements of intent) then they've shown over time they know what they're doing.

[Royal Rother]

Real vision is not about the next 6 months, it's about the next 2, 3, 5-10+ years. Sensible owners care more about that than the here and now.

In 2 years time no-one will be fussed much over what happened in 2013 and 2014.

Steady investment in the infrastructure, preparing the ground and sowing the seeds (as it were) is more likely to generate a successful and secure club in 2020, than investment in finished articles now. And with far less risk.

By investing in the academy and training facilities that's what they have been doing.

I don't see how or why an owner would not invest in both. No point having a fantastic academy generating great players for other clubs who are pushing higher and attracting better players. Smarter investment in players now, could see better returns and begin to establish a good reputation to build on in the future. Scraping up, investing f/ck all, getting walloped and slinking back down again to bubble rather insignificantly in the Championship doesn't seem that good a business strategy, even if you are palming the academy off as an excuse.

If / when we do become insignificant extras in the Championship it'll be a point worth considering.

As of now I believe we remain significant players (whilst continuing to bud home grown youngsters developed prior to the latest round of investment in the academy) so I'm not sure it's a hugely valid point just yet.

[Extended-Phenotype]

Hugely disagree, mate. We didn’t invest enough. We didn’t have the depth upfront. We had no creativity in midfield, yet again. We struggled for quality and depth on the wing. Our defence was weak and inexperienced. We had no pace at LB and no real quality at RB. Come January, yappity-yapp with the promises but what was delivered? Some division two DM? What sort of investment is that and how does that help us?

You are speaking like we had a sound investment plan and were “unlucky”. From where I’m sitting we tried to do it as cheaply as possible and ended up with an unbalanced team of holes and inexperience.

I’m basically saying that the argument FOR investment is not about spending X amount of pounds, or spending more than your opponent. It’s about spending on good players and building a balanced side, and we failed to do that. Just like we are failing to build a balanced side now.

JM/AZ simply do not have the vision (sorry) or inclination to do things better and give us more of a chance.

So you are talking about financial investment then. Whether you like it or not, what other teams spend does have an effect on what we can afford and might require.

And what you're talking about now is the January window as opposed to the summer windows which is what I was referring to as the one where you aim to build your better team for the season. In January you're just desperately trying to throw the dice and hope you can find a player or players that can hit the ground running.

I'm not arguing that we got it wrong I'm saying that getting it right isn't as simple as simply saying invest in a better squad/team which we certainly did try and do in the summer if not in January.

Maybe I just don't get as irate as others at the Club because I don't expect much from them anyway. I don't take much of what is said seriously because for the most part moden football is either entirely self congratulary mutual masturbation or PR bollocks. As long as they're not entirely reprehensible human beings, don't put the future of my club at risk and seem to have a vague idea of what they're doing then I'm ok with it.

I'm in danger of repeating myself ad nauseam so this is the last I'll say on this for now but aside from not quite finding a way to crack the dielmna of sustaining top flight football without veering away from the prudent approach (which like it or not is actually the club's football mantra far more often than the more fanciful statements of intent) then they've shown over time they know what they're doing.

Coolio, let’s just agree to disagree. I think that if we seriously expected to compete in the premier league, we needed to invest far more in players than we did. I don’t think a club gives themselves much of a chance if they spend as little as we did – you are simply not going to build an adequate squad that way. In terms of what others are doing, I simply mean that the aim is not to match others or succeed a designated threshold – it’s simply to invest money where needed, to stabilise your team; not try and paper over the cracks with loose change.

You think we invested enough, though – so I guess we aren’t really coming at this from the same angle.


RR - Fair enough on the Championship significance - perhaps my language was a little dramatic. Pre-empting an outside the play-off's position, which feels to me a waste of the momentum we have from promotion and the funds/players that come with that. The longer we aren't challengers the more players we will lose and the fewer players we will attract. Smart short-term investment should never be confused with throwing money away.

[Ian Royal]

Vision, you're an absolute hero. So calm, rational, insightful and articulate.

[maffff]

Vision, you're an absolute hero. So calm, rational, insightful and articulate.

Probably the next one to be hounded off the board then.

(+1 btw Vision)