England Squad

[Hoop Blah]

I actually just crunched the numbers and the average squad age is 25.6, wasn't England's last WC squads average age 31?

Ahh yes I see your point now. I fully expect Shaw to be challenging for the first team (as should Gibbs), but my squad (while somewhat tongue and cheek) is not about absolutely doing out with the old (in fact I only took Gerrard out because I quite like the name Henderson) I see the WC as a chance for England to reinvent themselves. Cole and Baines are simply undroppable whereas Lampard and Gerrard (imo) are not. Welbeck and Ox have gone to tournament but only have a combined 33 caps. To put that in context Ashley Young has 30.

I know my (half serious) squad has no chance of winning but neither does a squad including Gerrard, Lampard, Defoe, Carrick and so on, so why send them? there are above adequate replacements who should be setting their sights on the next Euros and Englands focus should be building a squad of 25ish year olds with, on average, 50 caps.

I know it wasn't a totally serious squad, just made for an semi-interesting point of discussion....

Even if we're building for the future I think you need to maintain a level of experience in a side so that there are role models to impart their knowledge and experience to the youngsters. If they're not there then the experience of going away for a tournament won't be as rich. I guess the danger with that is that the youngster pick up on the fear of failure and inhibition that has held England back.

A tricky balance to find for any manager.

Young and Henderson are other wildcards for the squad. The former looked more than comfortable on the international stage a couple of years ago (before a dire Euro's) and Henderson is really kicking on this season and looks to be flourishing under Rodgers. I think he could knock Lampard out of the squad for the summer, especially as he has a ready made understanding with Gerrard.

[NewCorkSeth]

I actually just crunched the numbers and the average squad age is 25.6, wasn't England's last WC squads average age 31?

Ahh yes I see your point now. I fully expect Shaw to be challenging for the first team (as should Gibbs), but my squad (while somewhat tongue and cheek) is not about absolutely doing out with the old (in fact I only took Gerrard out because I quite like the name Henderson) I see the WC as a chance for England to reinvent themselves. Cole and Baines are simply undroppable whereas Lampard and Gerrard (imo) are not. Welbeck and Ox have gone to tournament but only have a combined 33 caps. To put that in context Ashley Young has 30.

I know my (half serious) squad has no chance of winning but neither does a squad including Gerrard, Lampard, Defoe, Carrick and so on, so why send them? there are above adequate replacements who should be setting their sights on the next Euros and Englands focus should be building a squad of 25ish year olds with, on average, 50 caps.

I know it wasn't a totally serious squad, just made for an semi-interesting point of discussion....

Even if we're building for the future I think you need to maintain a level of experience in a side so that there are role models to impart their knowledge and experience to the youngsters. If they're not there then the experience of going away for a tournament won't be as rich. I guess the danger with that is that the youngster pick up on the fear of failure and inhibition that has held England back.

A tricky balance to find for any manager.

Young and Henderson are other wildcards for the squad. The former looked more than comfortable on the international stage a couple of years ago (before a dire Euro's) and Henderson is really kicking on this season and looks to be flourishing under Rodgers. I think he could knock Lampard out of the squad for the summer, especially as he has a ready made understanding with Gerrard.

Agree on Henderson! Young has a strangely good international record for such an crap player.. I reckon should be dropped for good!

I agree but the squads midfield has been focused too heavily on Gerrard and Lampard. Look at Germanys midfielders-
Muller(47), Kroos(41), Schurrle(30), Gotze(26), Rues(19), Draxler(10), Ozil(52), Gundogan(8) and the Benders(17 & 7 respectively) are all under 25 and are being developed much more effectively than Englands Midfield (internationally)
Of Englands under 25 Mids only Wilshere (14), Celverly (13) and Ox (13) have over 10 caps. (this are the only ones I could think of)

This shows the difference in player development and I honestly think Germanys model of building up caps for youngsters is a better one.

[Hoop Blah]

Agreed, Germany have done what we're about to do this summer, or after the World Cup perhaps, by bringing though the youngsters after a previous generation has largely failed.

The youngsters we might've hoped to be more involved have suffered significant injuries or, as well publicised of late, not had a chance to play enough league games and earn a place in the team. Wilshire, Barkley, Walcott (one you missed out but perhaps as he's a winger?), Oxlade-Chamberlain and Rodwell could all have been more involved if it wasn't for injury.

There's no doubt we persevered with the Gerrard/Lampard combination for far too long under subsquent managers though, with Carrick and Parker also earning a lot of caps when perhaps younger options could've been explored.

[NewCorkSeth]

Agreed, Germany have done what we're about to do this summer, or after the World Cup perhaps, by bringing though the youngsters after a previous generation has largely failed.

The youngsters we might've hoped to be more involved have suffered significant injuries or, as well publicised of late, not had a chance to play enough league games and earn a place in the team. Wilshire, Barkley, Walcott (one you missed out but perhaps as he's a winger?), Oxlade-Chamberlain and Rodwell could all have been more involved if it wasn't for injury.

There's no doubt we persevered with the Gerrard/Lampard combination for far too long under subsquent managers though, with Carrick and Parker also earning a lot of caps when perhaps younger options could've been explored.

Counted Walcott as a forward actually but he is probably Englands biggest success story of under 25 Mids which is odd considering how much time he seems to have spent out injured! Still 36 caps in and he looks quality when he plays!
But I think players like Henderson(7), Townsend(4), Barkley(3), Lallana(2), Rodriguez(1), Sterling(1), Zaha(2), Rodwell(3), Shelvey (0?) and further down the line Chalobah, Ince, Hughes, Ward-Prowse, Morrison and Redmond should be given much more chances. Getting these players, especially the first line, up to 25-30 caps should be priority number 1 for England fans.

[stealthpapes]

... but I think the people who get this wrong are, in some ways quite right ...

OK.

As long as you're happy with that.

So you don't think the commonly held frustrations with his selection as wide midfield player is warrented?

I think there's a time and a place for it personally, but that recent England managers have been too cautious and used him too frequently in that role. That's why people see him as an ineffective or dull square peg in a round hole and become critical of him.

I take it you don't agree?

You do understand your attempt to turn it round onto me fails on two big points. First, I was arguing for his position in the squad as a utility player as someone was suggesting he shouldn't go in ahead of Sterling(?), not what you've turned it into. Second, it was really forced and transparent. You're so much better when not talking about England.

Anyway, I think it's unfair because (a) he's usually in the squad as a utility player, (b) he's usually played wide when earlier plans have failed, with either people not making the squad due to injury or crushing lack of form. Take WC 2010, he played left midfield (though I have vague memories of talk of a diamond... ), didn't play then out wide again, setting up the goal from a cross from the right.

He should be in the squad as he's the best, most flexible 'utility' midfielder.
Criticism should be tempered because only children fail to understand that in a tournament, nothing really goes to plan, so he's often put in different positions. That's the nature of the role.

Suggestion that he shouldn't be in the squad, at the expense of a third lightweight, inexperienced wide player, which happens to him, and similar players, every two years, that remains utterly misguided.

[stealthpapes]

I think thats a bit chicken/egg really. I'm not sure whether picking him signals a cautious approach or whether he follows the cautious apporoach he's instructed to. He's been excellent going forward for City in a more liberated side under Pellegrini than Mancini's more cautious tenure. I just think he's such a good "team man" who follows instructions that people tend to assume that's he's simply a defensive choice. I'm with Papes I think he's better than that.

I think thats a slightly different point but I'd also agree with it.

He's in the England squad to cover a range of positions adequately. If he plays in them it means something asnt gone to plan in the previous weeks and months. BUT I also think he's a far better player and far more reliable than is being hinted. His last full season at Villa was superb, in performance and output.

The original point was picking someone like Sterling over him.

[NewCorkSeth]

James Milner is 16th in F365's WC ladder. Their description? Useful. Like a chopping board.

[Hoop Blah]

Paps, my point wasn't regarding his actual position in the squad, but how you were critical of England fans being disappointed with him and comparing him to other wingers negatively.

You said they're utterly wrong in being dissappointed with him and/or his inclusion in a squad. My argument is that when he's played predominantly as a more defensive wide midifeld option (a bit like Trevor Steven used to over and above Chris Waddle) it's understandable and not as utterly wrong as you suggest.

Having just checked it out to see if my recollection was right, I think you're wrong about his use in tournaments sides too (the bit about him being there to be used as utility player). In 2010 he started the first game on the left wing, dropped for the second game, then came back on the left for the 3rd group game. He started the Germany game on the right wing.

In that 2010 squad we took Wright-Phillips and Lennon as traditional wingers but played Milner and Gerrard out wide as our first choice. Joe Cole was also in the squad and another option out wide but I don't think he really played.

In 2012 we took Ashley Young, Theo Walcott, Oxlade-Chamberlain and Milner. You could maybe include Welbeck in that number too. Walcott and Welbeck being forwards as much as wingers and Ashley Young going into the tournament playing in Rooney's number 10 position.

Guess who started the first game on the right wing? Yep, Milner. Guess who started the second game on the right wing? Well I never, it was Mr Utility James Milner. And for the hatrick, who was our right winger in the third group game, you'll never guess but it was James Milner. One last go here, the loss on penalties to Italy only featured James Milner on the right wing!!!

Isn't it pretty fair for England fans to see Milner as a winger when every game he's started in a tournament for England (and probably all competitive fixtures) is as a winger. He should be in the squad as a versatile player to cover a number of positions and as a pretty reliable, clever and creative midfielder (he's possibly our most Scholes like centre mid recently) but he's been used (perhaps mis-used) by England managers as a winger over and above the others selected or available.

You can say England fans get it utterly wrong all you like, but the fact remains, when he's been in England squads he's been used as a winger so it's totally understandable.

[Hoop Blah]

The original point was picking someone like Sterling over him.

The original point I was arguing against was that England fans were utterly wrong that Milner should be seen as a winger, as that's where he's nearly always been used.

PS, you're right, I probably am a little better/more balanced when not talking about England! It's so easy to sneer and belittle England that it does wind me up when people do (not that I'm saying you are in this conversation, I'm just generalising).

[stealthpapes]

I don't even know where to start.

But let's take just one small section:

In 2012 we took Ashley Young, Theo Walcott, Oxlade-Chamberlain and Milner. You could maybe include Welbeck in that number too. Walcott and Welbeck being forwards as much as wingers and Ashley Young going into the tournament playing in Rooney's number 10 position.

Out of those, Milner is arguably the most consistent. He's arguably the best crosser. Sure Young might have moments of genius but he also has games where he doesn't show up. I'd also check who was carrying knocks and checking more than wikipedia as the section beforehand ...

Having just checked it out to see if my recollection was right,(in spite of writing exactly the same words as me ...) I think you're wrong about his use in tournaments sides too (the bit about him being there to be used as utility player). In 2010 he started the first game on the left wing, dropped for the second game, then came back on the left for the 3rd group game. He started the Germany game on the right wing.

is hilarious.

My memory of the third game is that him and Gerrard weren't really wingers and swapped sides. As I said, and you can check by watching the goal, he sets it up from a cross from the right. In fact, here's the highlights: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lw1zZMEwaU. Goals at 2:23. You might want to see the attacks beforehand where Gerrard is out on the left. I guess you watched the game, so you should remember details like that?

Anyway, I stand by the first comment. Anyone who can't see why Milner will also certainly go ahead of a third, lightweight wide player is deeply wrong. And they're often the sort of person who is deeply wrong on a two year cycle.

[Hoop Blah]

F*** me Paps. You criticised 'same old people getting it utterly wrong' when they talk about Milner going to tournaments as a winger and being disappointed because they want someone more attacking in the side/squad (think it was Sterling that was mentioned this time around).

Whenever Milner has played he's played on the wing, be that on the left, the right, swapping with Gerrard, playing narrow or hugging the touchline. He's been one of our first choice wingers (rightly or wrongly).

I agreed that Milner should have a place in the squad as that ultility cover (like Hargreaves was the comment from you or someone else I think) but I was pointing out that those who are disappointed that he's in the squad as a winger have every right to hold that opinion because that's exactly what he's been used as by the managers irrespective of what you want them to be in the squad for.

Out of those, Milner is arguably the most consistent. He's arguably the best crosser. Sure Young might have moments of genius but he also has games where he doesn't show up. I'd also check who was carrying knocks and checking more than wikipedia as the section beforehand ...

At no point have I said Milner wasn't worth a place, I'm just commenting on how he's been used so what the above is supposed to be proving I've no idea.

Anyway, I stand by the first comment. Anyone who can't see why Milner will also certainly go ahead of a third, lightweight wide player is deeply wrong. And they're often the sort of person who is deeply wrong on a two year cycle.

They may well be wrong that he shouldn't be there, but at least you're now accepting that this comment below about him being there as a utility player, and the one I was picking up on, is unfair on those that are critical of his selction as a more reliable and consistent winger.

Milner is underrated, he's the Owen Hargreaves of the squad. He's there to provide cover across the whole midfield and as an emergency fullback if required. Barkley, Lallana, Ox and Townsend are the ones competing with Sterling for a place. Don't think Sterling has done anything this season to suggest he should be ahead of those four.

Exactly.

Every two years, the same people get this utterly wrong.

[Ginger Ninjas]

Christ, this has got as boring as the boring James Milner twitter account...

Milner, barring injuries, will be one of the first names Hodgson puts in his squad, irrespective of whether he sees him as a starter or not - he likes him, he gives solid performances, he won't upset the apple cart, he covers a number of positions.

[NewCorkSeth]

Christ, this has got as boring as the boring James Milner twitter account...

Milner, barring injuries, will be one of the first names Hodgson puts in his squad, irrespective of whether he sees him as a starter or not - he likes him, he gives solid performances, he won't upset the apple cart, he covers a number of positions.

Boo urns - who invited the killjoy?

[Hoop Blah]

Cole also falling into that catergory at the moment. He needs to play otherwise I'd have Baines as leftback and Shaw there as backup and to get him some tournament experience.

It's a real danger for Cole, but I'd still have him first choice at the moment, but only just. If he hardly plays between now and the summer though I could see that scenario happening.

A warning for Cole from Hodgson.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/26168125

I wonder if it would get to the point where he opts to take Shaw instead of Cole as understudy if Baines, at 29, is going to be his first choice. It's not so long ago that he said you don't take experienced players like Rio Ferdinand to be backup.

[No Fixed Abode]

Would Hodgson consider Bertrand?

Champions League winner. More experience. Playing well and regularly for Villa.....

[Hoop Blah]

I'm sure he'll be in consideration if he plays consistently well between now and the end of the season.

I'd be pretty amazed if he got in the squad above Cole and Shaw though.

[NewCorkSeth]

Would Hodgson consider Bertrand?

Champions League winner. More experience. Playing well and regularly for Villa.....

If he does I'll eat my hat

[Samrfc01]

I'm sure he'll be in consideration if he plays consistently well between now and the end of the season.

I'd be pretty amazed if he got in the squad above Cole and Shaw though.

Cole has barely played all season has he?

I think its Baines for definite and then the 2nd spot is up for grabs.

[BR2]

I think Gibbs may now be ahead of Cole and certainly ahead of Bertrand.

[Hoop Blah]

I think Gibbs may now be ahead of Cole and certainly ahead of Bertrand.

I doubt he'd be ahead of Cole just yet, not for this summer anyway. He'd still be behind Shaw anyway. I think SSN might've been having a similar discussion this morning as I saw them mentioning Danny Rose as another English left back doing well this season.

If Hodgson is looking for fresh blood and to use the tournament to help build for the future then Cole could really be in trouble.