Premier League 'B' Teams to join Pyramid?

[P!ssed Off]

Good point Zac.

Taking your point further still, the number of mixed nationality players all the way up the league is increasing too. For example Jobi and McCleary could be English, but declared for Jamaica so now are technically non-EU despite having been born in England, so that screws with the non-EU players rule in the lower leagues that the FA is looking to include (I know they're Champo players, but the logic would still apply if they were playing in league 2)

No it wouldn't.
They would still count as EU players.
The likes of McAnuff and McCleary may well have declared to represent Jamaica at football.
But that has little bearing on their British citizenship.

Agree with ZacNaloen. It's lazy journalism and pretty rude when 'statisticians' declare players such as Karacan, Pearce, Leigertwood, McAnuff, McCleary, Robson-Kanu, Church, Roberts etc "not-english".

[ZacNaloen]

Yes, it's the fact he said "English" that makes me pretty confident the statistic is talking about the pot the FA gets to pick from rather than the citizenship of the players.

[Hoop Blah]

Yes, it's the fact he said "English" that makes me pretty confident the statistic is talking about the pot the FA gets to pick from rather than the citizenship of the players.

It's bollocks whichever way you want to look at it.

I just had a quick scan down the squads of the top 8 in the Premier League (so down to Southampton) and I counted 40 English players under the age of 21 who have been playing first team football this season, either for those clubs or out on loan.

I can't believe there aren't more than another 85 in the rest of the league.

[Platypuss]

The FA report recommends significantly tightening the work permit rules for non-EU players.
So far in fact, as to only allow them to play for Premiership teams.

[Hoop Blah]

The FA report recommends significantly tightening the work permit rules for non-EU players.
So far in fact, as to only allow them to play for Premiership teams.

I'd agree with the tightening of the rules so that we're only getting in the best, and I assume limiting to the Premier League is to help weed out the average players, but I can't see how they can say a Championship club can't sign Messi if they can afford him.

[Platypuss]

I think it's for those non-EU players who don't meet the International appearances criteria.

[Terminal Boardom]

What would be better would be to scrap the loan system altogether. The big clubs snap up talent from all over the place then send them out on loan. Look at the number of players that the likes of Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool etc have loaned out over the years.

[Hoop Blah]

What would be better would be to scrap the loan system altogether. The big clubs snap up talent from all over the place then send them out on loan. Look at the number of players that the likes of Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool etc have loaned out over the years.

I don't have a problem with the loan system to be honest. It gives first team football to players and provides an important step in their education before breaking into the first team of their own club.

Perhaps clubs should only be able to loan products of their own youth programme? That would stop the likes of Scott Sinclair going out on loan but not prevent your David Beckhams from getting valuable experience before being ready to play at the very top for their parent club.

[Platypuss]

I wish people would actually read the FA's document - there is stacks in there about modifying the loan system too.

[Hoop Blah]

I wish people would actually read the FA's document - there is stacks in there about modifying the loan system too.

I will skim read it when I get a chance as I'm sure there's some really good ideas in there but I'm pretty sure we're discussing our own ideas here as well as commenting on the report.

[P!ssed Off]

I wish people would actually read the FA's document - there is stacks in there about modifying the loan system too.

Mills and co. have already told us it's a "4 pronged attack" and it's "all or nothing".
Therefore if you're not prepared to accept B teams, which millions of people will not, then the other 70 pages of the report are redundant.

Say someone offers you a contract and says "you must accept all 1,000 of the terms or we cannot complete the deal, there is no room for negotiation".
You find Term 1 to be outrageously unacceptable. You laugh in their face and tell them to do one, you don't go on to read all the other 999 terms, that would be a complete waste of time.

[sandman]

Yeah come off it. Much like the FA and their plan you don't seem to be grasping the fact that you can't take the values of one football culture and apply it to another totally different one.

Real Madrid were established in 1902, Atletico not long after and Vallecano 1924 compared to Getafe, established in 1983. Doesn't matter about the population of Madrid or even the league they're in, you're looking at a club who are over half a century behind Vallecano never mind the level that the other two are at.

Luton established in the 1870's, only club in their location, the identity of their community and involved in a league structure that was largely built before Getafe were even an idea.

Let's look at Bury or Oldham, who have Man United and Man City in their area and a club like Bolton who are another established club with tradition. Their average according espn via a quick google is under 5,000 and they are clubs who have been established a lot longer than Getafe.

Same as snowball using stats as gospel rather than looking at the things that cause them.

Next P!ssed Off compares apples with oranges.

[Platypuss]

I wish people would actually read the FA's document - there is stacks in there about modifying the loan system too.

Mills and co. have already told us it's a "4 pronged attack" and it's "all or nothing".
Therefore if you're not prepared to accept B teams, which millions of people will not, then the other 70 pages of the report are redundant.

Say someone offers you a contract and says "you must accept all 1,000 of the terms or we cannot complete the deal, there is no room for negotiation".
You find Term 1 to be outrageously unacceptable. You laugh in their face and tell them to do one, you don't go on to read all the other 999 terms, that would be a complete waste of time.

Really?

4.2.5 Balancing the pursuit of objectives with practical considerations

As is the case with the introduction of all radical proposals, we anticipate there will be
some who will instinctively consider them too far-reaching or too difficult to deliver.
For instance, were this proposal for B teams playing in the lower leagues to be too
contentious for the Football League clubs (it would be the Football League, not the
Premier League, which would be most changed by this proposal) we would welcome
pragmatic debate about other possible proposals.

The Premier League itself has recognised the problems of the current Under 21
Premier League and has proposed a range of changes. From next season the Under
21 league will have two divisions, with promotion and relegation, which some believe
will give more purpose to games. Some games will be televised and fixtures will be
scheduled more regularly and the number of games clubs are required to play in their
main stadium will increase from three to five for each club.

However, many of the clubs we have spoken to have their doubts. Clubs that will play
in the lower division of the Under 21 Premier League have commented that this will
remove from them the benefit of competing against the best Under 21 sides, which
was a prime motivation for them establishing Cat 1 academies in the first place. Others
have told us they still doubt whether the changes will give their young players the
competition they need if they are to gain the experience necessary to challenge to get
in the first team squad.

Many of the older Premier League players we have talked to mourn the passing of the
old reserve leagues where they gained enormously valuable experience from playing
with older players. However, the history of the Premier League Reserve league which
ran between 1999 and 2012 shows how difficult it is to deliver what clubs, players and
fans need and seek. Despite many attempts to make it more competitive, the league
was finally abandoned and replaced by the current Under 21 Premier League.

If there were not to be B teams in the lower leagues, it is important that any alternative
proposals involving the creation of B teams realistically promise what academy
managers and coaches, club management and young players are calling for: games
that have an intensity of competition; something to play for, be it league position,
promotion/relegation or large prize money; meaningful cup competitions; crowds
and TV coverage; defined fixture days; proper stadium venues and – as a proper B
team – an ability to mix developing players and a backbone of older or motivated,
recuperating first team players. If such an experience could be created, it would be
welcomed by everyone in football.

READ THE FUKKING REPORT

[Libertine]

Still think it is a horrid idea.

All it does is further damage the fabric of professional football by giving and even a larger financial and competitive advantage to the teams in the highest tier of the pyramid.

My suggestions for what it is worth would be change the rules so youth players have to stay with the club that developed them until a certain age (for example, and arbitrarily, 21 years-old) to let them develop further (because anyone that good, who gets acquired by a PL team, will most certainly be getting ample playing time at their lower league team). That would potentially increase the value of the player and ensure the player was given time to develop at a critical time in their young careers. Reduce the number of players that the PL can have on their books. Next actually do FPP instead of providing just lip service about it. And if the PL is actually part of the FA share the mind boggingly staggering TV revenue they get better with the lower leagues.

Things are already bad enough with how uncompetitive football is becoming in terms of getting to and remaining in the highest levels of the pyramid. This PL B teams proposal, under the guise of developing better internationals, is just the biggest PL teams looking for an additional competitive and financial advantages over everyone else in the pyramid that they do not deserve. Maybe it is time to jettison the PL from the FA if the FA is just always doing the bidding of the PL. They call the PL "the greatest league in the world". In my mind it is the most boring and predictable league in the world with the only things that get decided each season is the order of finish of the same top 6 teams and which 3 will get relegated.

[Sanguine]

My suggestions for what it is worth would be change the rules so youth players have to stay with the club that developed them until a certain age (for example, and arbitrarily, 21 years-old) to let them develop further (because anyone that good, who gets acquired by a PL team, will most certainly be getting ample playing time at their lower league team). That would potentially increase the value of the player and ensure the player was given time to develop at a critical time in their young careers.

Flip side of that is that young players (Sterling, for example) get stuck at QPR and don't get the quality of training and career development they need to turn them into young international players.

You'd need to make the age stipulation lower, and then it becomes worth much less to the original club.

Or taking it further, that no-one wants to join QPR or Reading academy, because they know they will be stuck there until they are 21.

[Libertine]

Like I said the age I used as an example was an arbitrarily chosen one just to make the example. I would have no problem with it being lowered slightly. Bottom line allowing those younger players to stay with their clubs longer will enhance those club's competiveness and ensure the players get adequate playing time.

[Sanguine]

Perhaps. But does an 18 year old Ronaldo become Ronaldo without joining United? Would Sterling be the player he is had he only just left QPR?

[Libertine]

I think trying to make rules by thinking of the exceptions to it isn't the best way to go. Look at the benefit to Soton for holding onto Lallana up until now. And it certainly hasn't hurt Lallana's international prospects. Soon enough I figure Lallana will be off to a larger team and a huge payday in the meantime he has helped get his team to the top half of the PL...

[Hoop Blah]

I don't think you can stipulate that players can't move as such as it will just make them less likely to join their local club to avoid getting held back if they kick on.

Players absolutely need to be challenged and learn from better players to develop and so getting the best players into the best sides (or at least leagues) at some point is important to their development. I think one of the issues the report should, and is, trying to address is how we manage to convert a decent stock of 16-20 year old players into comparatively decent 25 year olds.

That's quite tricky obviously.

[P!ssed Off]

I wish people would actually read the FA's document - there is stacks in there about modifying the loan system too.

Mills and co. have already told us it's a "4 pronged attack" and it's "all or nothing".
Therefore if you're not prepared to accept B teams, which millions of people will not, then the other 70 pages of the report are redundant.

Say someone offers you a contract and says "you must accept all 1,000 of the terms or we cannot complete the deal, there is no room for negotiation".
You find Term 1 to be outrageously unacceptable. You laugh in their face and tell them to do one, you don't go on to read all the other 999 terms, that would be a complete waste of time.

Really?

4.2.5 Balancing the pursuit of objectives with practical considerations

As is the case with the introduction of all radical proposals, we anticipate there will be
some who will instinctively consider them too far-reaching or too difficult to deliver.
For instance, were this proposal for B teams playing in the lower leagues to be too
contentious for the Football League clubs (it would be the Football League, not the
Premier League, which would be most changed by this proposal) we would welcome
pragmatic debate about other possible proposals.

The Premier League itself has recognised the problems of the current Under 21
Premier League and has proposed a range of changes. From next season the Under
21 league will have two divisions, with promotion and relegation, which some believe
will give more purpose to games. Some games will be televised and fixtures will be
scheduled more regularly and the number of games clubs are required to play in their
main stadium will increase from three to five for each club.

However, many of the clubs we have spoken to have their doubts. Clubs that will play
in the lower division of the Under 21 Premier League have commented that this will
remove from them the benefit of competing against the best Under 21 sides, which
was a prime motivation for them establishing Cat 1 academies in the first place. Others
have told us they still doubt whether the changes will give their young players the
competition they need if they are to gain the experience necessary to challenge to get
in the first team squad.

Many of the older Premier League players we have talked to mourn the passing of the
old reserve leagues where they gained enormously valuable experience from playing
with older players. However, the history of the Premier League Reserve league which
ran between 1999 and 2012 shows how difficult it is to deliver what clubs, players and
fans need and seek. Despite many attempts to make it more competitive, the league
was finally abandoned and replaced by the current Under 21 Premier League.

If there were not to be B teams in the lower leagues, it is important that any alternative
proposals involving the creation of B teams realistically promise what academy
managers and coaches, club management and young players are calling for: games
that have an intensity of competition; something to play for, be it league position,
promotion/relegation or large prize money; meaningful cup competitions; crowds
and TV coverage; defined fixture days; proper stadium venues and – as a proper B
team – an ability to mix developing players and a backbone of older or motivated,
recuperating first team players. If such an experience could be created, it would be
welcomed by everyone in football.

READ THE FUKKING REPORT

So basically, when the FL have inevitably rejected B teams in the lower league, they're going to create a new reserve league, for 'B' teams?
And how much money was spent making this report?