Is Wooney World Class?

[Whore Jackie]

Once again? He was top scorer in this seasons CL, he produced probably the best individual performance of the season in the qualifying play off to get Portugal to the World Cup, helped his club win their domestic cup final and that's just this season.

But with Rooney it seems we have to discount all the good performances and just concentrate on the negatives, so why don't we do the same for every other decent player that has a bad game or two?

Probably because it's been so long since Rooney's last truly influential game for England. He just hasn't performed outside of the Man United team. In recent years he's looked at his best against mediocre PL and CL opposition.

Generally Portugal look a poorer team without Ronaldo, not sure you can say the same for England and Rooney.

[Whatevs]

In recent years he's looked at his best against mediocre PL and CL opposition.

.

it's fairly easy to get the evidence for this. Could you find and collate it and then we can see if you are right

quick google search for "Rooney" + "MOTM" produced results that said he was MOTM against Arsenal and Leverkeusen (sp?).
This was just a quick glance based on the metadata on first page

[Hoop Blah]

Any more take on what constitutes world class or if the likes of Messi or Rooney need to perform at World Cups to define their status?

I was disappointed in Messi over the whole tournament because he didn't actually play well or stand out as potentially the best player on the planet or the best there has ever been. His record and the impact of his goals though stands up to most scrutiny, but its surely about more than that isn't it?

[6ft Kerplunk]

Plenty of other world class players haven't performed to the peak of their powers at a world cup. It helps if you drag a good but not brilliant team to win the World Cup like Maradonna did in '86. Did Pele ever have an outstanding World Cup, fantastic achievement in winning it 3 times but was he the best player in any tournament? in Messi didn't look fully fit after a injury plagued season. Same for Ronaldo.

[stealthpapes]

Did Pele ever have an outstanding World Cup

1958.
Probably 1970 as well.

[Hoop Blah]

Plenty of other world class players haven't performed to the peak of their powers at a world cup. It helps if you drag a good but not brilliant team to win the World Cup like Maradonna did in '86. Did Pele ever have an outstanding World Cup, fantastic achievement in winning it 3 times but was he the best player in any tournament? in Messi didn't look fully fit after a injury plagued season. Same for Ronaldo.

I'm not doubting either players credentials as World Class by the way, but I do think performing well on the grandest stage, at least once, is probably a must if player really wants to be considered an all time great. Best and Di Stefano are players who most would, on refelection put in a similar bracket but rarely get talked of in most circles alongside the likes of Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Platini or Zidane.

Pele did have good tournaments, it's part of the legend of course, and helped by the fact that not as much football was available to watch on TV that his performances might not have been as hyped as in this era.

Part of my reason for asking is that we seem to be harsher on Rooney, Gerrard etc for their failings than we are on the international stars who, IMO, have also failed to live up to their star billing at this and previous tournaments.

[LUX]

Rooney and Gerrard are very good players and have undoubtedly been world class in their careers. But how many of the English 23 would get into the current German squad? Or even the French or Spanish one? Bit depressing at the moment, I do not think we are better than, say, the US.

To answer the OP, I'd say "not any more". It's true Messi disappointed in this WC (ditto Hazard, for example), but at least their club performances over the past couple of years >>>>>>those of Rooney.

[Hoop Blah]

I'd also agree with that. I'm not saying Rooney or Gerrard are currently world class either (although as you allude too, there is an argument that they have been at their peak), just that we seem to judge our own more harshly than others.

Interesting thought on the Germany squad too as I'd actually think we'd get a few into their squad (not their team perhaps) but the beauty of their team is that even with some very talented players their team is greater than the sum of it's parts, or at least seems to be.

[stealthpapes]

FWIW, the comment about Pele (and it probably applies to Maradona as well) is pretty much bang on the nose.

I'm not sure I do think we judge English players harshly for their skills and ability, it's the whole other stuff. Club issues, all the tabloid nonsense. WRT German side, I have have suspicions that an English Klose would have got nowhere near the squad on the basis of how he looks and how he plays. He'd have been behind Defoe or something ludicrous like that.

[double d]

IMHO I wouldn't put Rooney near the top 30 players to have ever played football. He is not world class by any means. He is good, and on his day shows brilliance and can be very good, but not world class.

[Handsome Man]

The longer the world cup went on, the better I felt about the Rooneys and Sturridges of the world. We saw lots of good teams playing lovely football and defending tenaciously, but we didn't see that many players who were loads better than our English ones. Sure, Rooney might not get into the German team at the moment, but he would probably make Argentina's or Holland's. We have probably got enough players who are good enough for world cup semi-finals. All we need is to turn them into a team.

[From Despair To Where?]

Any more take on what constitutes world class or if the likes of Messi or Rooney need to perform at World Cups to define their status?

I was disappointed in Messi over the whole tournament because he didn't actually play well or stand out as potentially the best player on the planet or the best there has ever been. His record and the impact of his goals though stands up to most scrutiny, but its surely about more than that isn't it?

I don't think Messi in any way warranted the Ballon D'Or but if it's said of great teams that they can win games even when they don't play well, surely it's the same of great players that they can have an impact and win games even when they are not playing well.

[Ian Royal]

Any more take on what constitutes world class or if the likes of Messi or Rooney need to perform at World Cups to define their status?

I was disappointed in Messi over the whole tournament because he didn't actually play well or stand out as potentially the best player on the planet or the best there has ever been. His record and the impact of his goals though stands up to most scrutiny, but its surely about more than that isn't it?

I don't think Messi in any way warranted the Ballon D'Or but if it's said of great teams that they can win games even when they don't play well, surely it's the same of great players that they can have an impact and win games even when they are not playing well.

Although, great players and great teams should still regularly put in great performances. Something Messi simply didn't do at the World Cup.

I think the difference between a very good player (Rooney) and a great player (Messi) is largely in the head. And the difference between a great player (Messi) and a Legend (Pele) is proving your quality on the biggest stage, rather than the actual quality.

[Hoop Blah]

IMHO I wouldn't put Rooney near the top 30 players to have ever played football. He is not world class by any means. He is good, and on his day shows brilliance and can be very good, but not world class.

Top 30 players of all time? Is that your definition of World Class then?

[Hoop Blah]

Any more take on what constitutes world class or if the likes of Messi or Rooney need to perform at World Cups to define their status?

I was disappointed in Messi over the whole tournament because he didn't actually play well or stand out as potentially the best player on the planet or the best there has ever been. His record and the impact of his goals though stands up to most scrutiny, but its surely about more than that isn't it?

I don't think Messi in any way warranted the Ballon D'Or but if it's said of great teams that they can win games even when they don't play well, surely it's the same of great players that they can have an impact and win games even when they are not playing well.

I think that makes sense yes, and I'm in no way suggesting Messi isn't a great player.

The only problem with Englands performances at this tournament, IMO, was that we didn't make the crucial moments in games go our way. That is perhaps the difference between good and the best teams, they find a way of winning those crucial moments.

[Hoop Blah]

FWIW, the comment about Pele (and it probably applies to Maradona as well) is pretty much bang on the nose.

I'm not sure I do think we judge English players harshly for their skills and ability, it's the whole other stuff. Club issues, all the tabloid nonsense. WRT German side, I have have suspicions that an English Klose would have got nowhere near the squad on the basis of how he looks and how he plays. He'd have been behind Defoe or something ludicrous like that.

Possibly true on the Klose point, although I'm not sure Hodgson or Capello before him were too influenced by media or public opinion when picking the squad. Sven and McLaren would may have been more swayed though. We do probably pick a lot on club form and potential as opposed to how effective players actually are for the national team (eg the whole Lampard & Gerrard conundrum over the last 10 years).

Oddly, I don't think we've got anyone similar to Klose in English football apart from, perhaps, Crouch. His record is good but perhaps never quite good enough to become the main man.

[Royalclapper]

The massive irony is that the Premier League is unashamedly touted about as the fastest, most intense league there is. And yet, once this WC started there was game after game played at an unforgiving relentless pace chock full of excitement...........and guess what?......England were found to be well short of being able to play with high technique at high pace

[double d]

IMHO I wouldn't put Rooney near the top 30 players to have ever played football. He is not world class by any means. He is good, and on his day shows brilliance and can be very good, but not world class.

Top 30 players of all time? Is that your definition of World Class then?

Not at all. I am just saying that I wouldn't put him anywhere near the top 30 players of all time with other footballing greats, so he clearly cannot be classed at a world class footballer

[Royal Rother]

Self-contradiction there.

[Royal Rother]

I don't think Rooney has ever been world class. He looked like he was going to be for a brief time but never quite lived up to that promise.