Wolves - back from the sofa

[Ian Royal]

- I'm sorry Ian Royal, but Danny Guthrie is a horrible piece of work and doesn't even have the good grace to be our best player, he's crap. I think it's fair to say Norwood is a substantial improvement and you know why? He plays the ball quickly. Danny Guthrie takes all year to make his mind up before trying some vanity ball with the defence set. Guthrie kills our tempo. Know football, know that to be true.

I agree Norwood is proving better than Guthrie. I agree Guthrie has slowed us down considerably in the past. I think Guthrie can and has dictated play for us well in the past as well though. And that he'd benefit from the general improvement in the quality of the side's passing and movement. Still work to be done there though. But he needs to get match fit and prove his worth otherwise he's certainly behind Norwood in the pecking order and therefore probably the different Karacan and Williams should they ever get and stay fit.

I don't really get where you get the vitriol of him being a horrible piece of work, or why he should "have the good grace to be our best player", both of those things seem like ridiculous comments to make to me.

I wouldn't be particularly upset to see Guthrie leave, but he does get some stupid criticism from people pushing an agenda simply because he didn't get on with McDermott and refused to play a game two years ago.

[Royal Rother]

And for his unappealing haircut last year.

[RG7Fan]

Figures don't really tell the whole story. Pog, when playing, has been stuck in a team creating next to no chances. Since Murray has come in along with the other new signings, we have been creating a huge amount more (admittedly that could be down to Murray/Pog being out of the team). I'd be very interested to see how Pog would do instead of Murray at the moment, as I think he would do somewhat better than he had been. I don't think Murray has been leading the line/winning headers any more than Pog was, and he seems to be getting bullied by defenders just as much as Pog was.

Sorry still can't agree, part of it is about attitude and understanding the English game and what you need to do as a team player. He just doesn't seem to want to scrap enough in games when things aren't going our way, also Pog has had some games this season and played the other night at Derby for a full 90 mins

I reckon the writing is on the wall for Pog, Murray is clearly the #1 choice to start. I noticed that in the initial warm up he (Pog) was all by himself doing his keepy uppies and not integrating with the rest of the team, everyone else : in groups or pairs. Last time I saw a player like that was last year - a certain Mr Drenthe ...

I certainly think Cox & Murray have settled in really well. Norwood is just fantastic for his long passes, Adkins should just get someone to stand in the back of the goal and get Norwood to try and pass to him ...

[Lower West]

I also agree with Gunter looking to be the weak point in the defence at the moment.

From my aerial view yesterday. Both full backs were far too often left totally exposed. Wolves set up out a team to expose the weakness. Ultimately did so successfully.

[Snowball]

He played a TOTAL of 403 minutes last season and 16 minutes this before joining us. That's four-and-a-half 90 minute games. Wowser.[/quote]

But it shows he's been IN the game and he recovered from the injury that caused his lay off months ago.

If a player comes on as sub for one minute for one game a season he's
technically "in the game". What exactly is your point? Are you trying to
infer that Murray is 100% at his match-fitness and sharpness peak?

It's totally obvious that he's "recovered from his injury". That's not the issue.

The issue is, "How many games does it take after a very long lay-off, to get back to maximum sharpness?"

[The Rouge]

Norwood and Sidwell together in the middle would have been great. That type of player is the ideal partner for him. Looking forward to Norwood and Williams together and Norwood/McLeary playing in the same team.

On what I have seen:

Murray is the most crucial player we have in our XI. Fantastic striker - positional play is great, holds the ball up well, intelligent, dangerous with his head and his right boot.

Then probs Obita although I don't think he had a great game, Norwood and Cox.

I get the desire to get Akpan and Guthrie out of our 1st XI but I actually think Blackman adds quite a lot to the team - he can hold the ball up, wins headers, has a trick to beat a man etc.

Federici was great against Wolves - dont think he can be blamed for any of the goals (from memory and did everything asked of him including stopping a 1-on-1.

[Snowball]

Palace, pundits, half a dozen here and THE MANAGER all say Murray needed games to reach his maximum





Big Ern : If we get him I imagine it being a season long deal. Can't see us paying serious money for him. His record speaks for itself though, taking a player who has been out for so long is always a bit of a gamble.

Moo: He is here to get his match fitness up.

Ralph Jolly: Steve Parrish on 5Live seemed to be saying it was about getting Murray fit.

Libertine: So we'll spend 4 months getting Murray fit just in time to send him back to Palace? Brilliant!

Royal Blue: However, on the Drenthe thread it is claimed that Steve Parish clearly stated to the BBC last night that Murray is only being loaned to us to get fit and that they have no intention of selling him!

Windermere Royal:
I think it`s already been agreed that the loan period is to assess his fitness and to sign him at an already agreed fee.

Nigel Adkins

Nigel Adkins was delighted with Glenn Murray's debut performance - and warned that the striker is going to get even better!

It was a dream debut for the frontman, and Adkins said, "Glenn scored two goals and he's only going to get better.

"We took him off with 25 minutes to go, he's got to get used to playing football again and getting to that fitness level.

[Ian Herring]

- I'm sorry Ian Royal, but Danny Guthrie is a horrible piece of work and doesn't even have the good grace to be our best player, he's crap. I think it's fair to say Norwood is a substantial improvement and you know why? He plays the ball quickly. Danny Guthrie takes all year to make his mind up before trying some vanity ball with the defence set. Guthrie kills our tempo. Know football, know that to be true.

I agree Norwood is proving better than Guthrie. I agree Guthrie has slowed us down considerably in the past. I think Guthrie can and has dictated play for us well in the past as well though. And that he'd benefit from the general improvement in the quality of the side's passing and movement. Still work to be done there though. But he needs to get match fit and prove his worth otherwise he's certainly behind Norwood in the pecking order and therefore probably the different Karacan and Williams should they ever get and stay fit.

I don't really get where you get the vitriol of him being a horrible piece of work, or why he should "have the good grace to be our best player", both of those things seem like ridiculous comments to make to me.

I wouldn't be particularly upset to see Guthrie leave, but he does get some stupid criticism from people pushing an agenda simply because he didn't get on with McDermott and refused to play a game two years ago.

Guthrie appears to be the epitome of what appears to be egocentric thinking (or perhaps, instinct).

Either way, he never ever looks part of the greater whole.

Within your discourse Ian, even if you prefer to take the balanced view, your comment 'I wouldn't be particularly upset to see Guthrie leave…' reveals a segment of the truth about this player.

Like it or not, his attitude with McDermott way back when date-stamped his impression at this club.

I had - conveniently - convinced myself he had left. Personally it irks me that he remains.

But that is purely my own opinion, obviously, etc.

[BenReadingFC]

Michael Hector's goal
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x26wlva_micheal-hector-s-1st-goal-for-reading-fc-reading-vs-wolves-28-09-2014_sport

[Reading4eva]

FTW...
Wolves were very much like Jackett's Millwall. A good team with no real weaknesses (but no great strengths either) but who were just a bit too conservative to take all three points (which I thought were there for Wolves to take them). I did enjoy the first ten minutes of the second half when they showed us what they could do, and you got the sense that if they didn't put it in the South Stand goal, then we would do it for them (out of sheer panic).

As for Reading...
....Murray is better than anything we've got. If we're convinced he has a few seasons left in him after the injury, he'd be a great coup. Feds looks like a top Championship goalkeeper to me as well. As for the rest, well...
The back four is sub-par. Given the lack of depth across the back four, for me this is NA's greatest failing. You cant spend a year and a half at a club and put that on the pitch and expect a round of applause. As for the front six - I can see what he is trying to do, and it could be quite interesting, but he doesn't seem to have the personnel for it. Blackman is a comedy meringue of silliness (and is, hence, my favourite player as he behaves like a robot rebelling against the other robots), Taylor has promise but is very conservative, Cox just sort of exists, really (But has a really nice touch - Im guessing he's a bit dim). Which leaves Akpan playing in a position he is never going to succeed in and Norwood, who better look bloody good, as his gameplan is to fill the holes on the pitch that the opposition don't consider worth defending (whether you like it or not)

Given this is Guthries's gameplan as well then Guthrie + Norwood = LOL - just what would you be thinking putting those two on the pitch at the same time?!

But somehow we got three goals and you shouldn't sniff at them. We're probably best described as unpredictable. The ideas are there for us to beat the best teams, but our constitution is so weak, you feel that in any game we could get another Peterborough-esque drubbing from a team with real confidence and no plan to get the draw.

Think you've hit the nail on the head there, and we've seen it already this season.

Forest - Drubbing from a team thriving on confidence but constantly fcuk it up season after season. We will beat them in the reverse as they will be on their annual slip
Fulham - a big win against a team with no confidence

Only teams which stand out for me so far are Norwich (who at the moment I fancy to win it) and believe it or not Brentford who are thumping well above their weight but I think will do quite well come May

Everyone else looks likely to wobble, slip or have a shit season. Blackpool are pathetic. Will be worried if we don't get 6 points from them

[Snowball]

A lot has been made of Adkins (alleged) error in bringing off Akpan at HT

Looking at the possession stats, if I remember rightly we had 44% first half
and overall we had 47% for the 90 minutes. Adkins stated in interview that
we needed to hold the ball more second half. Add the possession stats
together and you see we had 50-50 in the second half.

I certainly wouldn't have made the change at HT. I'd've least have said to Hope
that we need to hold the ball, go out there and do a bit better. He was already
dong a job WINNING ball, closing down their playmaker etc, but the ball didn't
stick - Leigertwood at his best would have been perfect in that position and IMO
a Leigertwood-type player is what we need.

Khul is promising (very, but he looks to have little energy or pace and that's a worry)

Norwood looks excellent, but he's hardly a midfield hard man.

Guthrie on his day can be VG and can win ball but he's not a DM either

Williams may be touted as a possible DM but for me he's a box to box player and not Mr Reliable.

Karacan adds some stiffness to midfield, but he's a buzz-saw, disruptive, not really the player
to sit in, deny space etc as a good DM does.


But couldn't Hector do the DM job? He is almost the top tackler in the league ATM, can break with the ball,
is TALL (we could do with height in midfield) and it looks like Cooper can do a job at CB in his place.

I know some here have said Hector "isn't a DM" but he's not terrible now and would quickly learn the role.

From what we've seen, Cooper looks like he will comfortably make the grade at CB.


Either way, it's my belief that our main problem isn't the back 5, but a porous midfield,
good going forward, but not so great when defending.

[under the tin]

I just at those bickering about statistics regarding pitch-time, fitness levels, strike rate etc.

Just use the evidence of your own eyes. The difference between Murray and Pogrebnyak is like night and day.

One of these professional athletes is capable of jumping for a ball, the other has lead in their boots.
One has the upper body strength and attitude to withstand a challenge, the other falls down and then gets up holding their head.
One leads the front line, and makes things happen, the other waits for something to happen.

I'm not a particular "H8r" of any player, but over the many decades that we have all watched the club, we see that there are those players who give a sh1t, and there are those who are collecting a wage. Drenthe was not the only misguided marquee signing made in recent times. Reputation will only get you so far.

It's not solely about ability. It's also about attitude. Without the latter, the former is largely irrelevant.

[Royal Ginger]

There are books devoted to highlighting the fact that interpretation of sport statistics is more important than subjective "scouting".

[Royalwaster]

I just at those bickering about statistics regarding pitch-time, fitness levels, strike rate etc.

Just use the evidence of your own eyes. The difference between Murray and Pogrebnyak is like night and day.

One of these professional athletes is capable of jumping for a ball, the other has lead in their boots.
One has the upper body strength and attitude to withstand a challenge, the other falls down and then gets up holding their head.
One leads the front line, and makes things happen, the other waits for something to happen.

I'm not a particular "H8r" of any player, but over the many decades that we have all watched the club, we see that there are those players who give a sh1t, and there are those who are collecting a wage. Drenthe was not the only misguided marquee signing made in recent times. Reputation will only get you so far.

It's not solely about ability. It's also about attitude. Without the latter, the former is largely irrelevant.

I think that Pog showed a lot of positive attitude last season though ... but I agree with you that Murray is head and shoulders above him at the moment.

[Snowball]

Yes, the evidence of one's eyes, but the eyes can deceive, and do, especially when people have pre-decided things

I quite like Pog, but he's never been remotely as strong as his physique suggests he should be.

Personally I don't think he's a target man, certainly not if the ball's above chest height.

He can hold up when used correctly, and he has scored a few spectacular goals, but, for me,
at least on the evidence so far (eyes AND stats) Murray is the better "old fashioned No 9"

[Wycombe Royal]

You do realise that in this time he has also been completing full training sessions and playing some reserve games. Like I said he is not "returning", he "returned" quite a while a go.

So if he played these 403 minutes over a period of 2 years since coming back from his injury would he still be "returning" in your eyes?

His injury was May 2013

He was out, badly injured, came back February last season for 4/5 games, then, since (and including) March 22nd he played 113 minutes first-team football.

This season he got 16 minutes. So that's 129 minutes competitive football in 27 weeks, less than 1.5 90-minute games.

Training, reserve games, under-21s are nothing like full-on competitive games. 403 minutes competitive football

That's from 12-May 2013 to 12-Sept 2014 = 16 Months = 25 minutes per month.

I say he's still coming back, and barring a fitness breakdown will improve for 3-4 months yet

I like the way you ignored the full 90 minutes he played in cup this season for Palace against Walsall.....you are being selective again....

Like I said, and which you ignored, if a player had played the same number of minutes in a 2 year spell since a bad injury would he still be "returning" in your view?

I would say he is still gaining match fitness due to his lack of minutes on the pitch this season, but his return from injury happened last season. He had a full pre-season under his belt just like every other player in the squad.

[Wycombe Royal]

Palace, pundits, half a dozen here and THE MANAGER all say Murray needed games to reach his maximum[/u][/b]

No one is disagreeing there, but that is match fitness, not to do with his injury which he returned from nearly 8 months ago. His match fitness is down to a lack of game time this season, not last season. There has been a summer break in between when most of a players match fitness goes.

[Snowball]

Palace, pundits, half a dozen here and THE MANAGER all say Murray needed games to reach his maximum[/u][/b]

No one is disagreeing there, but that is match fitness, not to do with his injury which he returned from nearly 8 months ago. His match fitness is down to a lack of game time this season, not last season. There has been a summer break in between when most of a players match fitness goes.

Well, that's what I clearly implied.

He is not yet near his top form (given his age) and is still improving as he gains match-fitness,
sharpens his awareness, gets to know the team, regauages everything.

IMO he's already more valuable than Pog and the gap will increase



As for being selective, nope, I simply missed the league cup stuff. He's still had a tiny number of minutes since March and, barring injury or breakdown should get better up to Christmas at least



which was the point

[Snowball]

Palace, pundits, half a dozen here and THE MANAGER all say Murray needed games to reach his maximum[/u][/b]

No one is disagreeing there, but that is match fitness, not to do with his injury which he returned from nearly 8 months ago. His match fitness is down to a lack of game time this season, not last season. There has been a summer break in between when most of a players match fitness goes.

Still "returning"



returning to full match fitness

[Maguire]

Soooo, we are all in agreement that Glen Murray is still working his way back to full match fitness. We also all agree that he's not just returning from a recent knee injury.

Good, let's move on.