Clarke's Clearout - Current Players' Apps for RFC

[strap]

Clarke's clearout means Chris Gunter is the current player with the most RFC apps followed by Hal Robson-Kanu. Incredibly, Jordan Obita is 3rd on the current list. I thought HRK would have been streets ahead - he seems to have been with us for years. He's only got 97 League starts in 7 seasons.





Based on starts, Jake Cooper makes the top 11!

[P!ssed Off]

Why have you decided coming on as a sub does not count as an appearance?
Hopefully your other stats aren't this flawed, normally a fan.

[strap]

Why have you decided coming on as a sub does not count as an appearance?
Hopefully your other stats aren't this flawed, normally a fan.

Simply because it doesn't. A substitute appearance generally lasts around 20-25 mins, whereas a start generally lasts around 65-70 mins.

I will do a quick check what the average substitute duration is ... give me a moment.

My record of actual timings is not complete before 1996/7 season, and I have a few minor gaps after that. However, in the league, since the start of 1996/97 season there have been 2014 substitutions where I have the time. On average these substitutions are made on 70 minutes, (69.6857 minutes to be precise). In my opinion, a substitute appearance of 20 minutes doesn't compare to a player playing the full 90, not indeed to the substituted player who, on average, plays 70 minutes from the start of a game. (Yes I know you are going to quote Nicky Forster in the play-off semi v Wigan, ditto Jamie Cureton in the Div 2 promo decider at Griffin Park, but you then miss out all the 90+3 subs made to run down the clock).

If you are really offended by my not including subs as actual appearances, may I suggest you look at the table and simply add the starts to the subs? It's hardly Quantum Mechanics!

Although as is often the way, your comment has sparked another question in my mind - has the average time of substitutions changed over the years? I'll look into that now. I seem to remember I did something similar about average substitute numbers and times by manager when comparing Sir Steve Coppell to Pardew et al. Will dig that out again and update for McD, Adkins and Clarke shortly.

Oh, and the only reason I have not included cups matches is because those going to extra time result in substitutions beyond 90 minutes, which would skew the numbers a bit.

HTH.

[P!ssed Off]

Why have you decided coming on as a sub does not count as an appearance?
Hopefully your other stats aren't this flawed, normally a fan.

Simply because it doesn't. A substitute appearance generally lasts around 20-25 mins, whereas a start generally lasts around 65-70 mins.

I will do a quick check what the average substitute duration is ... give me a moment.

If a player enters the field of play during the match he has accrued one appearance. It's completely irrelevant how long he's on the pitch,

[From Despair To Where?]

What I find a bit about those stats is that despite being involved in 202 games, Hal Robson-Kanu has played the full 90 minutes in less than a quarter of them (43 games). He has been subbed in something approaching two thirds of his starts.

[harry]

What I find a bit about those stats is that despite being involved in 202 games, Hal Robson-Kanu has played the full 90 minutes in less than a quarter of them (43 games). He has been subbed in something approaching two thirds of his starts.

Seems like some conclusions may be possible regarding those stats.....

Picking up on the previous point about appearances being appearances regardless of how long for, I'd be interested to see minutes played.

[P!ssed Off]

Why have you decided coming on as a sub does not count as an appearance?
Hopefully your other stats aren't this flawed, normally a fan.

Simply because it doesn't. A substitute appearance generally lasts around 20-25 mins, whereas a start generally lasts around 65-70 mins.

I will do a quick check what the average substitute duration is ... give me a moment.

My record of actual timings is not complete before 1996/7 season, and I have a few minor gaps after that. However, in the league, since the start of 1996/97 season there have been 2014 substitutions where I have the time. On average these substitutions are made on 70 minutes, (69.6857 minutes to be precise). In my opinion, a substitute appearance of 20 minutes doesn't compare to a player playing the full 90, not indeed to the substituted player who, on average, plays 70 minutes from the start of a game. (Yes I know you are going to quote Nicky Forster in the play-off semi v Wigan, ditto Jamie Cureton in the Div 2 promo decider at Griffin Park, but you then miss out all the 90+3 subs made to run down the clock).

If you are really offended by my not including subs as actual appearances, may I suggest you look at the table and simply add the starts to the subs? It's hardly Quantum Mechanics!

Although as is often the way, your comment has sparked another question in my mind - has the average time of substitutions changed over the years? I'll look into that now. I seem to remember I did something similar about average substitute numbers and times by manager when comparing Sir Steve Coppell to Pardew et al. Will dig that out again and update for McD, Adkins and Clarke shortly.

Oh, and the only reason I have not included cups matches is because those going to extra time result in substitutions beyond 90 minutes, which would skew the numbers a bit.

HTH.

Can I suggest that in future you subscribe to the standard definition of 'appearance' to avoid confusion.
Thanks.

[strap]

Why have you decided coming on as a sub does not count as an appearance?
Hopefully your other stats aren't this flawed, normally a fan.

Simply because it doesn't. A substitute appearance generally lasts around 20-25 mins, whereas a start generally lasts around 65-70 mins.

I will do a quick check what the average substitute duration is ... give me a moment.

If a player enters the field of play during the match he has accrued one appearance. It's completely irrelevant how long he's on the pitch,

Which of course is utter b*ll*cks. You are basing this on the international system, which explains why so many players have so many International Caps these days. Nevertheless, I shall retain my format and leave you to carry out some minor basic arithmetic, (should you wish to), to arrive at your rather odd comparator.

[strap]

Can I suggest that in future you subscribe to the standard definition of 'appearance' to avoid confusion.
Thanks.

I already do!

[P!ssed Off]

Simply because it doesn't. A substitute appearance generally lasts around 20-25 mins, whereas a start generally lasts around 65-70 mins.

I will do a quick check what the average substitute duration is ... give me a moment.

If a player enters the field of play during the match he has accrued one appearance. It's completely irrelevant how long he's on the pitch,

Which of course is utter b*ll*cks. You are basing this on the international system, which explains why so many players have so many International Caps these days. Nevertheless, I shall retain my format and leave you to carry out some minor basic arithmetic, (should you wish to), to arrive at your rather odd comparator.

Alternatively you could just say "look who's made the most starts" and not pretend that only starts count as appearances.

If you can't even get this right I wonder what other statistics you may have misled us with.

[strap]

Although as is often the way, your comment has sparked another question in my mind - has the average time of substitutions changed over the years?

There is a difference in average substitute timings season by season, (although I suspect the differences between managers rather than season might be more enlightening). Funnily enough, this season's average time, (albeit based on only 24 substitutions to date), is markedly later than previous ones :

AvSubTime NrOfSubs Season
78.46 24 2015
71.47 131 2014
69.82 128 2013
69.35 94 2012
72.93 96 2011
70.20 104 2010
65.80 116 2009
70.75 116 2008
72.97 95 2007
70.99 96 2006
73.42 110 2005
69.00 81 2004
68.30 105 2003
69.12 123 2002
69.41 121 2001
69.31 120 2000
66.56 110 1999
62.52 85 1998
68.73 73 1997
70.35 86 1996

2005/06 was a very successful season and had later average sub times. But then 2007 we were relegated yet the average sub time was similar to 2005. Which kind of supports the suggestion above that perhaps a comparison of manager sub times would be more telling, (Sir Steve Coppell being the manager in both those seasons of course).

Or it could all be b*llsh*t!

[strap]

What I find a bit about those stats is that despite being involved in 202 games, Hal Robson-Kanu has played the full 90 minutes in less than a quarter of them (43 games). He has been subbed in something approaching two thirds of his starts.

Seems like some conclusions may be possible regarding those stats.....

Picking up on the previous point about appearances being appearances regardless of how long for, I'd be interested to see minutes played.

I've done a quick check on HRK's League games (I've not yet written the code for Cup games going to extra time so I have excluded Knock-out cup matches for the time being). I also haven't made any allowances for added time, so the following isn't exact to the nearest second!

However, HRK's League starts total 97 with another 80 sub apps. (He's also been an unused sub 46 times). He has been subbed on 64 of his 97 league starts.

His total time on the pitch from a start is 7435 minutes, with a further 1654 minutes as a sub.

He's completed 97 - 64 = 33 games (2970 minutes).
So in the matches where he has been subbed, he averages (7435 - 2970)/64 = 69.77 minutes, (almost exactly the average for the entire subs in matches since 1996!).
In the matches where he has been used as a sub, he averages 1654/80 = 20.68 minutes - again very close to the average for all subs.

Put it another way, his 7435+1654 = 9089 minutes is almost exactly the equivalent of 101 games of 90 minutes.

[strap]

Alternatively you could just say "look who's made the most starts" and not pretend that only starts count as appearances.

If you can't even get this right I wonder what other statistics you may have misled us with.

Oh dear.

[Ian Royal]

Why have you decided coming on as a sub does not count as an appearance?
Hopefully your other stats aren't this flawed, normally a fan.

Simply because it doesn't. A substitute appearance generally lasts around 20-25 mins, whereas a start generally lasts around 65-70 mins.

I will do a quick check what the average substitute duration is ... give me a moment.

If a player enters the field of play during the match he has accrued one appearance. It's completely irrelevant how long he's on the pitch,

No offence PO, but it's strap's database so he can make the rules. And you don't get to dictate to him.

[P!ssed Off]

Simply because it doesn't. A substitute appearance generally lasts around 20-25 mins, whereas a start generally lasts around 65-70 mins.

I will do a quick check what the average substitute duration is ... give me a moment.

If a player enters the field of play during the match he has accrued one appearance. It's completely irrelevant how long he's on the pitch,

No offence PO, but it's strap's database so he can make the rules. And you don't get to dictate to him.

I'm not disputing his database, I'm disputing his analysis of it:

"Clarke's clearout means Chris Gunter is the current player with the most RFC apps followed by Hal Robson-Kanu. Incredibly, Jordan Obita is 3rd on the current list."

His own database clearly shows HRK has the most appearances, followed by Gunter, McCleary, Obita, Blackman...

Appearances = starts + subs. This is the standard definition.

As said, I usually enjoy Strap's stats, but in this case he's clearly wrong.

[Ian Royal]

I'm glad you're here, you make me look less of an arse.

[Nameless]

If in a season player A was subbed at half time in every game and replaced by player B who then played the whole of every second half would the end of season stats show A to have made 46 appearances and B to have made none ?
It's Strap's database, but I'm sure like a good statistician he's open to peer review of his work !
How often a player makes the starting XI is an important stat but for me an 'appearance' includes coming on as a sub.

[Ouroboros]

With all due respect to Strap and his amazing stats, PO is obviously right here. A definition of "appearances" that excludes coming on as a sub is untenable. Does the player not "appear"? So a player could score for a club without ever having appeared for them? Bizarre.

[loyalroyal4life]

I'm glad you're here, you make me look less of an arse.

Highly unlikely

[Platypuss]

Appearances = starts + subs. This is the standard definition.

Link?