The Academy/Development squads watch thread 2024/25

[CrowthorneRoyal]

Jack Stacey signs new a new deal until 2019.

http://www.readingfc.co.uk/news/article ... 51832.aspx

Good news.

Presuming he's recovered from his injury, Jack's another that needs to have a loan or two somewhere....

Not yet..... getting there but not 100%

[SCIAG]

Jack Stacey signs new a new deal until 2019.

http://www.readingfc.co.uk/news/article ... 51832.aspx

Good news.

Presuming he's recovered from his injury, Jack's another that needs to have a loan or two somewhere....

I'd rather drop Blackman than send Stacey out on loan.

[CountryRoyal]

Jack Stacey signs new a new deal until 2019.

http://www.readingfc.co.uk/news/article ... 51832.aspx

Good news.

Presuming he's recovered from his injury, Jack's another that needs to have a loan or two somewhere....

I'd rather drop Blackman than send Stacey out on loan.

Ignoring the tongue in cheek suggestion of dropping our top scorer, why the opposition to sending him out on loan when fit?

Do you honestly see him pushing for a spot with Hurtado, McCleary, HRK, John and Piazon? He's in the same boat as Fosu, the progress of both was one of the most exciting things about this season at the end of last - but a lot has happened since then.

They need to start getting regular competitive football.

[SCIAG]

It wasn't tongue in cheek, it was rhetorical.

Sending players out on loan doesn't seem to do them much good most of the time. If anything, it seems to set them backwards more often than not. Bell-Baggie, Taylor, D'Ath, Arnold, Ugwu, Tanner, now arguably Kuhl - all looked like future first teamers, went on loan, and returned as shadows of their former selves. Obita thrived in spite of his unsuccessful loans, Tshibola was good enough anyway. Our only player to have clearly benefited from a loan in recent years is Hector.

[ayjaydee]

It wasn't tongue in cheek, it was rhetorical.

Sending players out on loan doesn't seem to do them much good most of the time. If anything, it seems to set them backwards more often than not. Bell-Baggie, Taylor, D'Ath, Arnold, Ugwu, Tanner, now arguably Kuhl - all looked like future first teamers, went on loan, and returned as shadows of their former selves. Obita thrived in spite of his unsuccessful loans, Tshibola was good enough anyway. Our only player to have clearly benefited from a loan in recent years is Hector.

There has to be a balance surely. The squad is what it is now and Stacey is well down the pecking order at the moment. Under 21 is not particularly competitive and the club must do what is in the interest of both club and player. I was at a corporate "fans forum" recently and Clarke spoke at some length about the loan system from both angles. He mentioned that almost every club in Leagues 1 and 2 would take Liburd in a heartbeat but Clarke believes he needs more time here before he is ready to go out on loan. He is getting bench time but isn't going to get many minutes unless there are injuries or we are comfortably in front. So, at some stage the loan option would seem to be the way forward.
The pity is, if we get promoted again then the current crop will not get the same chances as your Tshibolas and your Hectors.

[Simon's Church]

It wasn't tongue in cheek, it was rhetorical.

Sending players out on loan doesn't seem to do them much good most of the time. If anything, it seems to set them backwards more often than not. Bell-Baggie, Taylor, D'Ath, Arnold, Ugwu, Tanner, now arguably Kuhl - all looked like future first teamers, went on loan, and returned as shadows of their former selves.

Those guys are all playing league 2 or below aren't they? Do you think they'd be championship players now if we hadnt loaned them out?

[Vision]

It wasn't tongue in cheek, it was rhetorical.

Sending players out on loan doesn't seem to do them much good most of the time. If anything, it seems to set them backwards more often than not. Bell-Baggie, Taylor, D'Ath, Arnold, Ugwu, Tanner, now arguably Kuhl - all looked like future first teamers, went on loan, and returned as shadows of their former selves.

Those guys are all playing league 2 or below aren't they? Do you think they'd be championship players now if we hadnt loaned them out?

Yes this. Slightly earlier but I think Pearce, Karacan and even Gylffi benefitted from loan spells. I'd also argue that Obita's loans were unsuccessful.

If any of the players mentioned had failed on loan, got released by us and gone on to bigger and better things it might be a pertinent point. But they haven't.

Obviously you don't want to discard talented players just because they don't settle short term elsewhere but it is something of an acid test as to whether they can step up from Youth/Development football to proper professional League status.

It's also a bit of a cheat to just say that Hector and Tish were "good enough" anyway when they were a fair way down the pecking order in their positions. Kuhl for instance was considered better than Tish (still is by many) whilst Hector wasn't considered the best of the young centre halves by any means.

In the end though it comes down to individuals. For some it may be that a Loan might not be the best for their development but in general I'd say it's more likely to do them good than bad. Clarke has made the point more than once that the loan spells were the making of Tish and Hec.

[ZacNaloen]

Kuhl is a totally different type of midfielder to Tish, they complimented each other well in the youth setup. Whether Kuhl can play without a Tish type next to him is looking to be his big test.

[Vision]

Kuhl is a totally different type of midfielder to Tish, they complimented each other well in the youth setup. Whether Kuhl can play without a Tish type next to him is looking to be his big test.

The comparison is made in response to the "Tish was good enough anyway" remark from Sciag which seemed to suggest that the Hartlepool loan was irrelevant in his development.

I'm not saying they're fighting for the exact same spot just that before Tish's loan his development was certainly considered to have been some way behind Kuhl's. The loan gave Tish a mental edge that was obvious to Clarke in pre-season.

[maffff]

Hector wasn't considered the best of the young centre halves by any means.

England u19 legend Jack Mills was, wasn't he?

[mambo3]

Going out on Loan is all about getting young players to play "Mans Football" and getting them out of there comfort zone.
This could be why Kuhl + Tanner are suffering as they have always been at Reading and therefore need to spend as much time
as possible on loan until they return to decent level of form constantly like Samuel and Tishbola did when they were on loan

[Royal Rother]

Is Kuhl struggling?? I thought he looked decent in the half of the game against Hearts...

He comes across very well... Still got the the leadership instinct about him...

https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/2015 ... aron-kuhl/

Defiant Aaron Kuhl has promised Dundee United fans the only way will be up under new manager Mixu Paatelainen.

The England youth international is on loan from Reading until at least January and, if he has his way, by the time he returns south the Tangerines will have moved well up the Premiership table.

Although Paatelainen’s first game in charge at Tannadice ended in defeat to leave United four points adrift at the foot of the table, the 19-year-old believes they did enough against Hearts to show that will be a temporary situation.

“Obviously we were not happy with the result and it was annoying we didn’t win. But the gaffer said the desire was very good and we just lacked a bit of quality and I think a lot of us would agree,” he said.

“We are fighting and we are a team that is going to get out of this rut, without a doubt.”

Kuhl admits the task now is marrying the spirit shown on Sunday with the quality of football he knows the team can play.

And the fact, beginning with champions Celtic at Parkhead on Sunday, some tough games lie ahead over the next few weeks does not worry him.

“It’s annoying we showed great determination all over the park but we lacked that bit of quality we normally have each week. On Sunday we just lacked that little bit in the final third.

“We are all very good on the ball, so, naturally, that should happen but we all have a day or a few games where things are a bit off.

“When you are under pressure, like we are just now, you can be a little stiff and sometimes you overthink things. However, I think we are a team that’s got great ability and that shouldn’t affect us.

“Sure, we have big games coming up but this is what you want. As a footballer you want to play in the big games and against all the big teams.

“We are looking forward to the games. If we show the determination we did against Hearts we should be fine.

“On Sunday we have Celtic but we’ve shown we can be a horrible team to play against and we can play as well. Put them both together and teams will be scared of us.

“Maybe having watching us against Hearts on TV people might be saying, ‘hey they have ability but they can fight as well’.”

Kuhl admits seeing the manager who brought him north just a couple of months ago sacked was not nice but being included in Mixu’s first starting line-up gave him a boost.

And he promises the difficulties of the past few weeks will be pushed to one side as the players concentrate on getting the wins they need.

“It’s a great feeling the new gaffer has come in and seemed to like me and a lot of the players.

“And, the longer he’s here, the more we will become that horrible team to play against and be good on the ball as well.

“It is difficult coming on loan and then there’s a change of manager but that’s how it is, it’s what football is like. Literally one week you have a manager, the next week you don’t. We didn’t have a manager or a goalkeeper coach for a week and a bit.

“But you just get on with it. That’s the way footballers are, you have to adapt to new systems and get to work.

“At Reading, Nigel Adkins got the sack and it moved to Steve Clarke but I’ve had a few come in since I’ve been a scholar there. So you get used to it.

“It’s nice to stay with a manager and stick with him but sometimes that’s not the way it is.”

[BR2]

Very eloquently expressed by young Kuhl.
I watched most of the game having had a bet on Hearts and therefore tended to watch the game from a Hearts' perspective.
I thought Hearts should have won by more, were much quicker in everything that they did and had much more inventiveness, particularly up front.
I felt that Dundee Utd were dreadful-Kuhl tried hard (and put in a couple of full-bloodied tackles that his dad would have been proud of) to link play but it was difficult to see whether his passing wasn't accurate and sharp enough or whether some of the other players weren't on the same wavelength.
However the season pans out this is good experience for the boy and if he improves as much as Hector did at Aberdeen (having not particularly shone at Barnet etc.) we would be well pleased.

[NewCorkSeth]

I miss his Afro..

[SCIAG]

It wasn't tongue in cheek, it was rhetorical.

Sending players out on loan doesn't seem to do them much good most of the time. If anything, it seems to set them backwards more often than not. Bell-Baggie, Taylor, D'Ath, Arnold, Ugwu, Tanner, now arguably Kuhl - all looked like future first teamers, went on loan, and returned as shadows of their former selves.

Those guys are all playing league 2 or below aren't they? Do you think they'd be championship players now if we hadnt loaned them out?

Not all of them, of course. We had a very good first team at the time and it would have been difficult for them to break in. But yes, I think several of them would have made the grade in the Championship if we'd shown a bit of faith in them rather than, say, sticking Hayden Mullins in the team ahead of Arnold or persisting with Church and Manset ahead of Bell-Baggie or an attacking midfielder or playing Tanner regularly from last January.

It's also a bit of a cheat to just say that Hector and Tish were "good enough" anyway when they were a fair way down the pecking order in their positions. Kuhl for instance was considered better than Tish (still is by many) whilst Hector wasn't considered the best of the young centre halves by any means.

It isn't cheating, because I said the same things about these players before they went out on loan. One of the first mentions of Hector's name on this portal is me saying he should be considered ahead of the overrated Jack Mills and Angus MacDonald as back up for our centre-backs of the time (iirc this was Matt Mills/Zurab/Pearce/Ivar). Also, I'd like to point out that I also said he did benefit from going out on loan.

There are also posts from me from nearly two years ago saying Tshibola should be playing in central midfield ahead of Akpan or McAnuff. More just before we signed Norwood, saying we should only use midfielders called Danny or Aaron until Jem was fit. Personally, I didn't see an improvement in him either side of his Hartlepool loan any bigger than the improvement in the young midfielders who remained at the club. The comparison with Kuhl is a false one, Tshibola's much more mobile whilst Kuhl is a holding player like Norwood. I wouldn't have wanted Tish alongside Akpan any more than you'd want a midfield containing Kuhl and Norwood together. Personally I'd argue that Kuhl is more talented, but there was never much between them. I get the perception - Kuhl was starting for the first team and captaining the youth sides to unprecedented success - I just don't think it was matching what they were doing on the pitch.

Our academy used to play a traditional 4-4-2. We could send players out on loan and they'd be playing in roles they were familiar with. Now we're sending them out on loan, only for a new manager to come in and decide he doesn't need an attacking midfielder, or he doesn't want his centre backs passing the ball out from the back.

We've had loads of success from keeping players at the club and sticking them in the team. We've lately had plenty of misery when we've sent players out on loan. I'm not saying we won't get a fantastic loan for someone like Stacey which will push them on, merely that in the long run, we'd be better off letting players develop in the U21s and giving them game time here, in a way that benefits us.

[Royal Rother]

It is that internal development that I want to see (on the pitch) and therefore was initially somewhat disappointed when, after the last transfer window, it seemed unlikely it would happen, unless the new signings flopped.

Now of course we are likely to be chasing every point in a potential promotion challenge right through the next 6 months and it is unlikely that Fosu, Stacey, Cooper, Keown & Co will get the character building Championship game time at Reading their stage of development probably merits.

And next year in the PL the same will apply....

So it does seem highly likely those 4 will be loaned out in due course / this season.

[Vision]

Nice post SCIAG but it still doesn't address the point that it was the loan spells that Hector and Tish had which convinced the club they were ready for the 1st team on a regular basis. Do you honestly think Tish would have played every game of the season if he'd stayed playing Under 21 football alongside Kuhl last season rather than going out on loan?

I'm not sure how you can deny it when the evidence is right in front of you every game and the manager himself has mentioned it more than once.

As stated previously it might not work for everyone but for managers it can be an acid test of whether youngsters have the mentality for League football week in week out. We won't know how it will effect the likes of Kuhl and Tanner until they return but given both players development had stalled somewhat after promising starts to last season I can't see how a loan spell would do them any harm.

[SCIAG]

Nice post SCIAG but it still doesn't address the point that it was the loan spells that Hector and Tish had which convinced the club they were ready for the 1st team on a regular basis. Do you honestly think Tish would have played every game of the season if he'd stayed playing Under 21 football alongside Kuhl last season rather than going out on loan?

I can't be certain, but it's a definite possibility. Whether the manager would have been willing to play him is another matter, but I am confident he would have succeeded if he had been played.

I'm not sure how you can deny it when the evidence is right in front of you every game and the manager himself has mentioned it more than once.

Clarke sent Tshibola out on loan when he'd been manager for about two weeks, and he had four or five senior central midfielders available for his 4-2-3-1 formation. I don't think he will have got a proper idea of what he could do until the summer.

As stated previously it might not work for everyone but for managers it can be an acid test of whether youngsters have the mentality for League football week in week out. We won't know how it will effect the likes of Kuhl and Tanner until they return but given both players development had stalled somewhat after promising starts to last season I can't see how a loan spell would do them any harm.

Tanner didn't stall, he was out for several months with an injury. He made a surprise return to action for the U21s just before being sent out on loan and played well. He was used as a striker in a long ball 4-4-2 alongside Akinfenwa. He couldn't get involved in matches, and the only goal he scored was recorded as an OG, so he became unpopular with fans. This summer he looked like a completely different player to the one who was putting in impressive performances in the first team at the start of last season, he seems shot of all his confidence and belief, and Clarke left him out of the squad to tour Thailand. Similar stories with Taylor and D'Ath in the past.

Think it would do Tanner more good to be here, getting used to Clarke's system, forming an understanding with Liburd and scoring goals, against strong opponents (and maybe getting the minutes we're giving Piazon) rather than being a utility substitute for Plymouth.

[Vision]

The simple truth though is that as much as you and I might want him to, Clarke is far more likely to entrust time on the pitch to those that have had successful loans elsewhere and shown they're up to the task in competitive senior football. Hector and Tish are proof positive and Clarke describing Tish as "a completely different player after his loan spell" tells you all you need to know.

The likes of D'ath and Taylor haven't failed to establish themselves here because they've been farmed out on loan. It's simply because their ability level is below the level we're playing at now and aspire to in the future. Both may end up at that level on a regular basis in the future (ala Cox, Goldbourne and Henry) but I'd say it's a fair way off at the moment.

Tanner is currently at a club with a manager who plays the type of football that suits him. Unfortunately for him he's up against one of the best players in the division this season in Carey for a starting spot. Again though this will be a good test for his mentality. I fully expect him to come through this test and be a better player for it when he returns to us. Likewise I don't believe it will do Kuhl any harm at all tto step outside of his comfort zone and tough it out in a difficult situation at Tannadice.

The other point is that if both of those remained playing under 21 football then surely that potentially blocks the development of other potentially good young players in mcuh the same way you claim that signing the likes of Piazon for the first team does.

[CountryRoyal]

Last season we saw a record number of academy players graduate into the first team. It also coincided with our worst season and lowest league position for over a decade.