BFTG - WBA

[Mr.Swainey]

I struggle to respect anyone who chooses a career path in killing people. Subsequently I would never wear a poppy or want to be associated with it.

The irony here is off the scales. I don't think many in the trenches 'chose' a career path in killing people.

[tmesis]

In regards to Catterick royals point. Yeah you're right it is football not politics so why is a oxf*rd poppy on the shirt?
.

That bit I do agree with.

The poppy day appeal is a charity, and people should be free to support or ignore any charity based on their own wishes.

If players wish to show their support then they should buy a shirt with a poppy on, then it would be their choice.

Likewise, anyone on tv or in the public eye any way at all shouldn't be forced to wear a poppy for the whole first half of November, just so they can be seen to be supporting the cause.


A minute's silence, however, should be respected. Even if you don't wish to show respect yourself, you should respect those that do.

[exileinleeds]

I get that now, but what about back in the day when the people they were killing were only Nazis?

I'll nibble!

The people they were killing were people.

Yes they may have been directed by the Nazi high command (also people, however evil), but they were fighting for their country for reasons they thought (from the information they were given by their rulers) was correct or because they felt they had no other choice.

Calling everyone in the German army at the time of the war a "Nazi" is about as accurate as saying that everyone in the British army today is a Tory.

War is foul and anyone that dies in it should be remembered so that maybe one day we'll learn that it's best avoided, about as likely as religious tolerance.

Personally I think that wearing a poppy is the right thing to do, but, McLean should be allowed to choose to do what he likes without censure. The British army didn't always cover itself in glory, either during the "troubles" or before. I can quite see how people from Ireland might still hold a great deal of enmity towards England!

nibble over...

What a balanced thoughtful and intelligent response. You would fit right in posting in AE Fezza.

How do you plan to vote in the referendum?

[facaldaqui]

What a balanced thoughtful and intelligent response. You would fit right in posting in AE Fezza.

Which is a hotbed of sensible opinions.

[Jagermesiter1871]

I struggle to respect anyone who chooses a career path in killing people. Subsequently I would never wear a poppy or want to be associated with it.

The irony here is off the scales. I don't think many in the trenches 'chose' a career path in killing people.

I should probably make it clear here that I do have a sense of respect for those who were made to fight under forced conscription. They didn't choose that as you say. However I still find it hard to 'respect' war and the mass killing of others, in many cases civilians, quite often just in the pursuit of the ruling powers beliefs.

I find it odd how the whole respect war heroes narrative is rammed down everyone's throats, with little thought often given to what is being glorified.

I remember making a similar point in a pub post FA cup semi-final last year at Wembley, within earshot of several other Reading fans, on the huge army presence and display and it's relevance to a football match. This nearly caused a mass brawl.

[tmesis]

I find it odd how the whole respect war heroes narrative is rammed down everyone's throats, with little thought often given to what is being glorified.

Poppy day is synonymous with WWI trench warfare, the Somme etc. It must be about the least glorified war ever, being seen as a complete waste of life.

It's that that's being remembered, people being tricked into voluteering for what they thought was a noble cause, treated as cannon fodder by the generals of the day. It most certainly is not about glorified heroic war battles.

[harry]

I find it odd how the whole respect war heroes narrative is rammed down everyone's throats, with little thought often given to what is being glorified.

Poppy day is synonymous with WWI trench warfare, the Somme etc. It must be about the least glorified war ever, being seen as a complete waste of life.

It's that that's being remembered, people being tricked into voluteering for what they thought was a noble cause, treated as cannon fodder by the generals of the day. It most certainly is not about glorified heroic war battles.

When I was a kid poppy day was all about WWI but it seems to have changed over the years to cover any & every conflict. I can see the point if it was about the senseless waste of life in WWI or sacrifice fighting fascism in WWII but anything else ....? Everything in my lifetime seems to have been sideshows for political gains and / or ill-conceived invasions on (at best) dodgy grounds.

[Ian Royal]

I find it odd how the whole respect war heroes narrative is rammed down everyone's throats, with little thought often given to what is being glorified.

Poppy day is synonymous with WWI trench warfare, the Somme etc. It must be about the least glorified war ever, being seen as a complete waste of life.

It's that that's being remembered, people being tricked into voluteering for what they thought was a noble cause, treated as cannon fodder by the generals of the day. It most certainly is not about glorified heroic war battles.

When I was a kid poppy day was all about WWI but it seems to have changed over the years to cover any & every conflict. I can see the point if it was about the senseless waste of life in WWI or sacrifice fighting fascism in WWII but anything else ....? Everything in my lifetime seems to have been sideshows for political gains and / or ill-conceived invasions on (at best) dodgy grounds.

That's nothing new.

WWI typifies the senseless waste of war and a determination to avoid it in future, but it (and the poppy symbol) is relevant to all conflicts and all those affected by them. Not that anyone should be obliged to join in.

[Royality creeps In]

ANYWAY!
I quite enjoyed the game

[Chelsea/Royal]

ANYWAY!
I quite enjoyed the game

What game?

[Fezza]

I get that now, but what about back in the day when the people they were killing were only Nazis?

I'll nibble!

The people they were killing were people.

Yes they may have been directed by the Nazi high command (also people, however evil), but they were fighting for their country for reasons they thought (from the information they were given by their rulers) was correct or because they felt they had no other choice.

Calling everyone in the German army at the time of the war a "Nazi" is about as accurate as saying that everyone in the British army today is a Tory.

War is foul and anyone that dies in it should be remembered so that maybe one day we'll learn that it's best avoided, about as likely as religious tolerance.

Personally I think that wearing a poppy is the right thing to do, but, McLean should be allowed to choose to do what he likes without censure. The British army didn't always cover itself in glory, either during the "troubles" or before. I can quite see how people from Ireland might still hold a great deal of enmity towards England!

nibble over...

What a balanced thoughtful and intelligent response. You would fit right in posting in AE Fezza.

How do you plan to vote in the referendum?

AE mode on...

No idea at present.

The little Englander in me wants us independent from Europe and their straight bananas, and I like Boris.

However my more rational side wonders what will happen to the subsidies our small farmers relay on to survive, the recruitment of staff with a work ethic (rather than the quite strange "entitled" ethic that many UK workers / non workers seem to possess) and protection from larger powers (becoming another state of the USA, passively, or Russia, fearfully). Oh and I hate Galloway, Farage and Gove!

AE mode off...

[exileinleeds]

Your AE mode is excellent....why not head over there and chew the fat for a while, it has been very quiet lately. We could do with more like you.

[Norfolk Royal]

A lot of those soldiers might also say they were fighting so people in the future would have a right to choose how to express themselves whether it be by wearing a poppy or something else.

Not sure that is true having lost mates in Northern Ireland, but respect your view. So are we saying an Afghani Player could play and not have to wear the RFC badge because it has the Forbury Lion on it which commemorates the Battle of Maiwand fought against the Afghans? Surely this is football not politics so players should just wear the shirt, respect the beliefs of the Country they have chosen to play in and keep their political views to themselves?

You're narrowing the point to pretty extreme examples there really. The view I put is reasonably mainstream I would have thought.

[Maneki Neko]

I get that now, but what about back in the day when the people they were killing were only Nazis?

I'll nibble!

The people they were killing were people.

Yes they may have been directed by the Nazi high command (also people, however evil), but they were fighting for their country for reasons they thought (from the information they were given by their rulers) was correct or because they felt they had no other choice.

Calling everyone in the German army at the time of the war a "Nazi" is about as accurate as saying that everyone in the British army today is a Tory.

War is foul and anyone that dies in it should be remembered so that maybe one day we'll learn that it's best avoided, about as likely as religious tolerance.

Personally I think that wearing a poppy is the right thing to do, but, McLean should be allowed to choose to do what he likes without censure. The British army didn't always cover itself in glory, either during the "troubles" or before. I can quite see how people from Ireland might still hold a great deal of enmity towards England!

nibble over...

lol


agree on mclean.


but still massively disagree on the having no respect for people who "choose" a career in killing

[Jagermesiter1871]

I get that now, but what about back in the day when the people they were killing were only Nazis?

I'll nibble!

The people they were killing were people.

Yes they may have been directed by the Nazi high command (also people, however evil), but they were fighting for their country for reasons they thought (from the information they were given by their rulers) was correct or because they felt they had no other choice.

Calling everyone in the German army at the time of the war a "Nazi" is about as accurate as saying that everyone in the British army today is a Tory.

War is foul and anyone that dies in it should be remembered so that maybe one day we'll learn that it's best avoided, about as likely as religious tolerance.

Personally I think that wearing a poppy is the right thing to do, but, McLean should be allowed to choose to do what he likes without censure. The British army didn't always cover itself in glory, either during the "troubles" or before. I can quite see how people from Ireland might still hold a great deal of enmity towards England!

nibble over...

lol


agree on mclean.


but still massively disagree on the having no respect for people who "choose" a career in killing

Why have you put choose in speech marks? Everyone in the British army today chose that as a career path.

[Maneki Neko]

I'll nibble!

The people they were killing were people.

Yes they may have been directed by the Nazi high command (also people, however evil), but they were fighting for their country for reasons they thought (from the information they were given by their rulers) was correct or because they felt they had no other choice.

Calling everyone in the German army at the time of the war a "Nazi" is about as accurate as saying that everyone in the British army today is a Tory.

War is foul and anyone that dies in it should be remembered so that maybe one day we'll learn that it's best avoided, about as likely as religious tolerance.

Personally I think that wearing a poppy is the right thing to do, but, McLean should be allowed to choose to do what he likes without censure. The British army didn't always cover itself in glory, either during the "troubles" or before. I can quite see how people from Ireland might still hold a great deal of enmity towards England!

nibble over...

lol


agree on mclean.


but still massively disagree on the having no respect for people who "choose" a career in killing

Why have you put choose in speech marks? Everyone in the British army today chose that as a career path.

wasn't really talking about todays soldiers. hence the reference to back in the day when they were mostly killing Nazis.



but even then, majority of army recruits come from very poor underprivileged areas with no employment or training prospects.
for many its a "choice" of the army, or the dole

[Forbury Lion]

I struggle to respect anyone who chooses a career path in killing people. Subsequently I would never wear a poppy or want to be associated with it.

Remembrance day is about remembering the lives lost in conflict, Something even the most passive of pacifists should be able to buy into.

As for choosing a path in killing people, not everyone had a choice and not everyone went to war with a weapon, In WW2 a number of conscientious objectors went to war unarmed and went on the front lines as medics and stretcher bearers, No doubt many lost their lives so feel free to show your respect for them during the minutes silence as well as anyone executed for failing to fight.

If people didn't choose to join the British Armed Forces I imagine there will be some soft of National Service in which we would all be required to take part, so I'm grateful for those who choose that career path, My Dad joined the army partly because he was unemployable and had to support his family, back then it was a bit more clear cut - the army was all about defending our shores rather than our interests abroad.

[West Stand Man]

I struggle to respect anyone who chooses a career path in killing people. Subsequently I would never wear a poppy or want to be associated with it.

Remembrance day is about remembering the lives lost in conflict, Something even the most passive of pacifists should be able to buy into.

As for choosing a path in killing people, not everyone had a choice and not everyone went to war with a weapon, In WW2 a number of conscientious objectors went to war unarmed and went on the front lines as medics and stretcher bearers, No doubt many lost their lives so feel free to show your respect for them during the minutes silence as well as anyone executed for failing to fight.

If people didn't choose to join the British Armed Forces I imagine there will be some soft of National Service in which we would all be required to take part, so I'm grateful for those who choose that career path, My Dad joined the army partly because he was unemployable and had to support his family, back then it was a bit more clear cut - the army was all about defending our shores rather than our interests abroad.

The Army has always been about defending our interests abroad as much as defending our shores.

Few soldiers join 'in order to kill people'. Most of us sign up to do some good in the world and to try to keep the peace. You do, of course, need to be prepared to fight if it all goes wrong and that is clearly understood by us.

Anyway, as to McLean and poppies etc. My understanding is that our soldiers in all the wars fought and died to keep our freedoms. The choice of poppy or no poppy is one of those freedoms. Mind you, to not wear a poppy because of your republicanism seriously misses the point.

[floyd__streete]

Just back from the game. Pleasantly very surprised by the performance, tactically excellent from the manager. How this set of players find themselves in the bottom half of the division is a bit of a disgrace really, but there is time to fix that.

[genome]

Just back from the game.

Christ. Is the traffic around the stadium that bad