LOLiverpooLOL - Next Season

[royal tee]

The fatal error was to open the gate, especially when there were other options. Without that 1 action, 96 people would not have died. It was a negligent decision taken without reasonable consideration..

Disagree - the fatal error was not to block off the access to the tunnel leading to pens 3 and 4 when the gate was opened. According to the excellent Guardian article the closing of the tunnel was a known tactic to the police that even had its own specific name. It had been implemented many times before.

There was no "rush at the last minute " to get in to the game. There were problems beginning to build outside the Leppings Lane end before 2.30 and the police were not in any position to cope with this. Even once Gate C was opened at around 2.50 there was no rush or running to get in to the stand. There was a flow of 2000 people towards the natural entrance ahead of them - the tunnel to pens 3 & 4. If the tunnel had been closed off this wouldn't have happened.

Basically due to the hubris and arrogance of the Chief Constable, an inexperienced Match Commander was put in charge of the match who was incompetent and incapable of carrying out the duties required to keep the fans safe. IMO that is solely where the blame lies.

[From Despair To Where?]

I get where paps and, to a lesser extent kes, are coming from here.

Fans getting into the game weren't responsible for the deaths but their actions surely contributed to the circumstances that caused such a tragedy.

As a father I find it hard to read some of the accounts, especially Trevor Hicks', and the pain of his and his fellow bereaved is incomprehensible.

Personally, having read that article and other information, I think it's perfectly clear that whether some tiny minority of fans may have had a bit too much to drink, or tried to get in without tickets, these tiny minority of probable but hypothetical fans in no way contributed to the disaster or deaths. And that even raising any point that some few dozen people may have been a bit drunk or tried to 'jib' in is utterly irrelevant and to be perfectly honest somewhat offensive.

"A few dozen people may have been a bit drunk" . A massively naive post Ian. But I'm sure you believe they were all on the Vimto that day too which begs the question. Have you ever been to a football match, a big away day such as a semi-final?

*I'm not saying it massively contributed to what happened

And after 2 years, the inquest has established it made no contribution to what happened so give it a rest Kes. You're wrong, get over it.

[No Fixed Abode]

Yep - I just said it didn't massively contribute to what happened. Having thousands of drunk people in one place doesn't help though. Police should have put measures in place to prevent this though.

I don't see what you're offended about there?

[Sanguine]

Yep - I just said it didn't massively contribute to what happened. Having thousands of drunk people in one place doesn't help though. Police should have put measures in place to prevent this though.

I don't see what you're offended about there?

Probably that you so brazenly continue this line when as you are well aware you have openly stated on here in the past that Liverpool fans must take their share of the blame for the disaster. The inquest has determined that the fans did not contribute to the disaster. A bit of contrition wouldn't go amiss.

[From Despair To Where?]

Because you'be been spouting misinformed shit for a number of years and, much like the Chief Constable of South Yorkshire, even when the truth has been established in court, you still want to try to qualify the verdict rather than fully accept the findings of one of the most thorough inquests in legal history

[Ouroboros]

Yep - I just said it didn't massively contribute to what happened. Having thousands of drunk people in one place doesn't help though. Police should have put measures in place to prevent this though.

I don't see what you're offended about there?

You're right that if there hadn't been thousands of people attending a semi-final on that day then it's quite probable nobody would have been crushed to death.

Don't know why you think alcohol is relevant, given that this has been thoroughly ruled out as a contributing factor.

[6ft Kerplunk]

With some respect to The Sun - there was a double page on the court findings yesterday and an apology (for the third or fourth time) on page 10.

Kes, if this story hadn't been about Hillsborough do you think The Sun would've put the biggest story of the day about a corrupt police force lying to the government, inquests and the public for 27 years on its front page?

[paultheroyal]

Yep - I just said it didn't massively contribute to what happened. Having thousands of drunk people in one place doesn't help though. Police should have put measures in place to prevent this though.

I don't see what you're offended about there?

Probably that you so brazenly continue this line when as you are well aware you have openly stated on here in the past that Liverpool fans must take their share of the blame for the disaster. The inquest has determined that the fans did not contribute to the disaster. A bit of contrition wouldn't go amiss.

Spot on

[paultheroyal]

Because you'be been spouting misinformed shit for a number of years and, much like the Chief Constable of South Yorkshire, even when the truth has been established in court, you still want to try to qualify the verdict rather than fully accept the findings of one of the most thorough inquests in legal history

And again

[No Fixed Abode]

It's no my fault you're misinterpreting what I say.

Season upon season you see drunken twattish behaviour at football. I didn't say it had a major factor in the Hillsborough disaster. As I've said previously - football fans think going to football gives them licence to act in a manner they wouldn't normally in every day life. This doesn't make the Police's job any easier - that's my point. And it's about time we get rid of this "But it's what football fans do" culture.

But it's fine. I accept that I am wrong.

I now know there were no ticketless fans trying to jib in, everyone was drinking Vimto and on their best behaviour that day. .

[Ouroboros]

I don't think you understand what we're saying, or what the inquiry found.

[From Despair To Where?]

He's too busy renewing his Flat Earth Society membership

[No Fixed Abode]

I don't think you understand what we're saying, or what the inquiry found.

I saw a bloke driving whilst on his mobile phone yesterday. He was breaking the law. It's ok though he wasn't caught.

[Ouroboros]

I just can't' be bothered with putting in the mental effort required to figure out why you think that's a relevant analogy.

Did the Liverpool fans at Hillsborough break the law, then?

[Hoop Blah]

I don't think the Liverpool fans were breaking the law but the crush was caused by people rushing into an already crowded area and pushing to get in despite people being in front of them and not being able to move.

The authorities are the ones responsible as it was their job to ensure the crowd entered safely but the actions of the fans pushing to get in has to have contributed to the tragic events.

[Sanguine]

I don't think the Liverpool fans were breaking the law but the crush was caused by people rushing into an already crowded area and pushing to get in despite people being in front of them and not being able to move.

The authorities are the ones responsible as it was their job to ensure the crowd entered safely but the actions of the fans pushing to get in has to have contributed to the tragic events.

The fans entering at the gate could not see the crush area. They were not aware of what was developing, and could not have been.
Which is probably one of the reasons why the inquest concluded that their behaviour did not contribute to the disaster.

[Hoop Blah]

Those at the back could still see the person in front of them that they were pushing though. I've been in those situations myself*, and I totally accept you get to the point where you're helpless to do anything about it, but that's because the people at the back are pushing.

Of course they didn't push on purpose to cause a crush and it was a tragic accident from that point of view (that should've been better handled/prevented by the authorities) but it was that crowd surge that built the pressure.

* I remember coming out of Dean Court a season or so later (must've been the League winning season I guess) and my feet not touching the ground for 15/20 yards because of the crowd swell. Thankfully there was only a bottle neck at the exit of the away end and not a fixed fence or obstruction otherwise the result could've been a lot worse.

Liverpool fans weren't doing anything out of the ordinary that day and were just rushing to get in. For that they're aren't responsible for what happened and couldn't have known what the surge was doing at the bottom of the terrace, but that surge and pushing by the Liverpool fans contributed to crush.

[Sanguine]

Those at the back could still see the person in front of them that they were pushing though. I've been in those situations myself*, and I totally accept you get to the point where you're helpless to do anything about it, but that's because the people at the back are pushing.

Of course they didn't push on purpose to cause a crush and it was a tragic accident from that point of view (that should've been better handled/prevented by the authorities) but it was that crowd surge that built the pressure.

* I remember coming out of Dean Court a season or so later (must've been the League winning season I guess) and my feet not touching the ground for 15/20 yards because of the crowd swell. Thankfully there was only a bottle neck at the exit of the away end and not a fixed fence or obstruction otherwise the result could've been a lot worse.

Liverpool fans weren't doing anything out of the ordinary that day and were just rushing to get in. For that they're aren't responsible for what happened and couldn't have known what the surge was doing at the bottom of the terrace, but that surge and pushing by the Liverpool fans contributed to crush.

Think about it, you're basically saying that the crush caused the crush.

[Hoop Blah]

I'm saying that if the fans didn't push each other in their rush to get into a crowded area (the tunnel leading into the terracing) then there wouldn't have been a crush on the terrace.

I'm just saying that the pushing wasn't something they did knowing the situation at the bottom of the terrace or that is was that out of the ordinary for crowd behaviour. That's why the inquest (and I've agreed) has said they bore no responsibility for the events but, IMO, the actions of those fans contributed to the situation.

It's a small yet massive difference in responsibility and contributing to the crush.

[BR2]

As this is an ongoing Liverpool thread rather than a Hillsborough topic can I just say that I am looking forward to the game v Villareal tonight.
I think the bookies and media may have gone over the top after the Dortmund game and expect tonight to be tough especially with the (much improved) Sakho not playing.
Having already backed Liverpool at 11/1 to win the competition I have covered the bet with Villareal to win it at 4/1.
It may all go wrong but IMHO either Liverpool or Villareal have a good chance of beating the other sides and Seville don't seem as strong this season even though they might regard this competition as their own.