How impressed are you with BMcD's return to the club?

[Snowball]

In the last three seasons at this level, Kermogant has 41 goals from 107 matches. Pretty crap record before that, only breaking 10 goals once in five years in various second divisions, but he looked to be having a late-career renaissance and made sense as a signing. It just hasn't worked.

He is a number 10. We play him as a nine

[Maneki Neko]

He was the only one willing to take the paycut. Everyone else went. Either hes loyal, or he knows hes average

[Maneki Neko]

For me it is out of his control.these things were done without his say so. That is perfectly reasonable litigation imo.

We failed to improve because, no matter what formation/tactics/personell we tried, we simply couldnt put ball in net enough to win games and that added pressure onto a makeshift defence.
Thats what happens when u sell ur onky two recognised goal scorers.
and I dont disagree with the decision to do that either.

Only recognised goal scorers? Blackman isn't a recognised goalscorer he just had a freakish run of form and we had Vydra, Cox and Robson-Kanu, plus the incoming Kermorgant who were all as capable of scoring goals as the two that left (well, certainly as capable as Blackman at least. Sa's record is slightly better).

The fact that none of those players have shown any form in front of goal for us can't be a coincidence can it? What is it that prevented them finding their scoring touch? Addressing that would've been good management and it certainly wasn't selling Sa and Blackman that prevented us scoring goals.

Cox? Never been good eniugh or scored enough goals.
Kermorgant. Cheap experienced stop gap who failed.
Vydra been shot all season. Plqyed better under Brian,or at least responded positively to the arm around the shoulder approach,but still couldn't score.
Kanu another in a long list of false 9s and wingers who think theyre strikers, none of whom score enough or set up enough goals
Its just not a strikeforce. Its patchwork, makeshift, not even bare munimum stuff

[Maneki Neko]

why is gunter bad business? if he has a good tournament he may leave for a good fee
if he stays, RFC have kept a decent experienced pro, in a position we are already very short in.
what exactly is bad business about that?

gunter isn't a barn storming matchwinner, hes just a full back, & they tend to be failed wingers or failed defenders, and its not a position you can easily influence games from.

is he the best full back in the world? no. is he the worst? no.
does he stop all the crosses? no, is he unerringly accurate with his crossing? no.
is that a reason to get rid of him? no

IMO he played miles better after his contract was renewed anyway.

Average going forward, average defending. You don't (usually) get out of this division with average players

Yep fair.
But ill take him as back up to a better full back, or mentor to a younger one.
Especially given there are other places our meagre budget should be spent first. Imo

[Top Flight]

why is gunter bad business? if he has a good tournament he may leave for a good fee
if he stays, RFC have kept a decent experienced pro, in a position we are already very short in.
what exactly is bad business about that?

gunter isn't a barn storming matchwinner, hes just a full back, & they tend to be failed wingers or failed defenders, and its not a position you can easily influence games from.

is he the best full back in the world? no. is he the worst? no.
does he stop all the crosses? no, is he unerringly accurate with his crossing? no.
is that a reason to get rid of him? no

IMO he played miles better after his contract was renewed anyway.

Average going forward, average defending. You don't (usually) get out of this division with average players

Yep fair.
But ill take him as back up to a better full back, or mentor to a younger one.
Especially given there are other places our meagre budget should be spent first. Imo

I think Gunter is much better than he is given credit for.

Just look at the evolution of Murty. When it all came together in the 106 season, that was when Murty was at his most effective and very best. The players you play with and the whole ethic of the team makes a difference.

I wouldn't sell Gunter, he would be a key part of the rebuild for me.

[genome]

I don't think we're playing the right system for Gunter anyway.

The diamond requires full backs that are confident enough to bomb on and are particularly dangerous in attack (see Rose/Walker... worked a treat in the diamond for England against Germany) so there is some width in the side. I don't think Gunter is that man, how many people have complained we've got no width recently? That's why. I think he's fine in a 4-4-2 where he's less exposed.

[Top Flight]

I don't think we're playing the right system for Gunter anyway.

The diamond requires full backs that are confident enough to bomb on and are particularly dangerous in attack (see Rose/Walker... worked a treat in the diamond for England against Germany) so there is some width in the side. I don't think Gunter is that man, how many people have complained we've got no width recently? That's why. I think he's fine in a 4-4-2 where he's less exposed.

I agree with that. 4-4-2 is the formation that I hope we go back to and bring in the right players for.

[Hoop Blah]

...we simply couldnt put ball in net enough to win games and that added pressure onto a makeshift defence.
Thats what happens when u sell ur onky two recognised goal scorers.

Only recognised goal scorers? Blackman isn't a recognised goalscorer he just had a freakish run of form and we had Vydra, Cox and Robson-Kanu, plus the incoming Kermorgant who were all as capable of scoring goals as the two that left (well, certainly as capable as Blackman at least. Sa's record is slightly better).

The fact that none of those players have shown any form in front of goal for us can't be a coincidence can it? What is it that prevented them finding their scoring touch? Addressing that would've been good management and it certainly wasn't selling Sa and Blackman that prevented us scoring goals.

Cox? Never been good eniugh or scored enough goals.
Kermorgant. Cheap experienced stop gap who failed.
Vydra been shot all season. Plqyed better under Brian,or at least responded positively to the arm around the shoulder approach,but still couldn't score.
Kanu another in a long list of false 9s and wingers who think theyre strikers, none of whom score enough or set up enough goals
Its just not a strikeforce. Its patchwork, makeshift, not even bare munimum stuff

You said that Blackman and Sa were our only recognised goalscorers.

[snowball mode on]

Blackman has scored 53 goals in his 234 game career. He'd scored 2 goals in his last 13 Reading games.
Sa has scored something like 59 in 198 and only scored in 3 of his 21 Reading games.

Cox has scored 91 goals in 341 career games and had scored 8 goals for Reading by Christmas in 2014-15.
Kermorgant has scored 129 goals in 452 games and his last 4 season in the Championship have returned 15, 9 (only 16 games), 5 (in only 21 games) and 12 league goals.
Vydra has scored 60 in 193 games (or 52 in 167 before Reading) and scored 20 and 16 league goals in this Division for Watford

My point is that these players are every bit as recognised as goalscorers as Blackman and Sa but we as a club failed to get them to fire this season.

That is down, in part to management.

[Maneki Neko]

I don't think we're playing the right system for Gunter anyway.

The diamond requires full backs that are confident enough to bomb on and are particularly dangerous in attack (see Rose/Walker... worked a treat in the diamond for England against Germany) so there is some width in the side. I don't think Gunter is that man, how many people have complained we've got no width recently? That's why. I think he's fine in a 4-4-2 where he's less exposed.

put in a midfield that protects the defence, put in CBs who aren't flakey as oxf*rd and that will allow him to push forward with more confidence.
agreed on the 442- hes been good in that system, especially when he has time to build a partnership with his winger

[Maneki Neko]

Only recognised goal scorers? Blackman isn't a recognised goalscorer he just had a freakish run of form and we had Vydra, Cox and Robson-Kanu, plus the incoming Kermorgant who were all as capable of scoring goals as the two that left (well, certainly as capable as Blackman at least. Sa's record is slightly better).

The fact that none of those players have shown any form in front of goal for us can't be a coincidence can it? What is it that prevented them finding their scoring touch? Addressing that would've been good management and it certainly wasn't selling Sa and Blackman that prevented us scoring goals.

Cox? Never been good eniugh or scored enough goals.
Kermorgant. Cheap experienced stop gap who failed.
Vydra been shot all season. Plqyed better under Brian,or at least responded positively to the arm around the shoulder approach,but still couldn't score.
Kanu another in a long list of false 9s and wingers who think theyre strikers, none of whom score enough or set up enough goals
Its just not a strikeforce. Its patchwork, makeshift, not even bare munimum stuff

You said that Blackman and Sa were our only recognised goalscorers.

[snowball mode on]

Blackman has scored 53 goals in his 234 game career. He'd scored 2 goals in his last 13 Reading games.
Sa has scored something like 59 in 198 and only scored in 3 of his 21 Reading games.

Cox has scored 91 goals in 341 career games and had scored 8 goals for Reading by Christmas in 2014-15.
Kermorgant has scored 129 goals in 452 games and his last 4 season in the Championship have returned 15, 9 (only 16 games), 5 (in only 21 games) and 12 league goals.
Vydra has scored 60 in 193 games (or 52 in 167 before Reading) and scored 20 and 16 league goals in this Division for Watford

My point is that these players are every bit as recognised as goalscorers as Blackman and Sa but we as a club failed to get them to fire this season.

That is down, in part to management.

fact remains a strike force of kanu, kermo, (this years)vydra and cox is laughably short of the quality required at this level
add Blackman and Sa to it and it at least gives you options to swap people around and drop people who lose form.

but agreed- theyre all pretty shit. that's kinda what im saying

and again, that's not within brains control.
the only one he was involved with buying was kermorgant,
and it wasn't his decision to sell the others

[Hoop Blah]

We still had enough firepower within the squad to have scored more goals than we did under McDermott, it wasn't just selling Sa and Blackman that caused the problems.

[Maneki Neko]

We still had enough firepower within the squad to have scored more goals than we did under McDermott, it wasn't just selling Sa and Blackman that caused the problems.

no., we clearly didn't, given what I said.
I already said it was the fact that the other 'strikers' were shit
but selling the two who had scored more than anyone else is certainly a massive factor

[Hoop Blah]

We still had enough firepower within the squad to have scored more goals than we did under McDermott, it wasn't just selling Sa and Blackman that caused the problems.

no., we clearly didn't, given what I said.
I already said it was the fact that the other 'strikers' were shit
but selling the two who had scored more than anyone else is certainly a massive factor

The players we had left in the squad are/were more than capable of scoring enough goals at this level.

They've all scored goals at this level at a significantly better rate than they have for us this season so they have it within them we just didn't get them to perform this season.

[Maneki Neko]

simon church scores at a significantly improved rate to our strikers this season

anyway, thanks for the diversion, but I disagree.
enjoy your day

[Hoop Blah]

simon church scores at a significantly improved rate to our strikers this season

And that sums up how badly they've under performed not how poor they are as players.

Just to remind you, Simon Cox scored 8 goals from 21 starts before Christmas last season but you're telling me he's just too shit to score goals in the Championship.

I'm happy to disagree on it, I suppose I can't help it if you're happy to be wrong....

[Maneki Neko]

simon church scores at a significantly improved rate to our strikers this season

And that sums up how badly they've under performed not how poor they are as players.

Just to remind you, Simon Cox scored 8 goals from 21 starts before Christmas last season but you're telling me he's just too shit to score goals in the Championship.

I'm happy to disagree on it, I suppose I can't help it if you're happy to be wrong....

what is simon coxes overall goal scoring record, at this or any other level?
hes not a striker. hes not ever going to form part of an effective strike force.
because he scored 8 goals in 21 games in one tiny patch doesn't change that.



also- it doesn't really matter what they've done it the past. they may have been decent enough once, but they are no longer.

[Vision]

We still had enough firepower within the squad to have scored more goals than we did under McDermott, it wasn't just selling Sa and Blackman that caused the problems.

I think you underestimate the message sent out when you sell your top striker to a potential play off rival. The moment we did that we were closing the door on the season really. The rot had set in before then , Fulham away or Rotherham away (as McShane pinpointed) but the final nail in the coffin for the season was selling Blackman to Derby. the fact that Sa followed shortly after only compounded the issue.

I'd agree you'd still have hoped for a bigger impact but you can see quite clearly where and why it all went south.

[Hoop Blah]

I'd agree you'd still have hoped for a bigger impact but you can see quite clearly where and why it all went south.

I'd argue that selling Blackman (2 goals in 13 games) wasn't actually that big an issue but I'd agree there is a side effect on the mentality of the squad. That's where good management comes into getting the most from the squad, which was really the point I was making.

I'm not calling for McDermott to be hung out to dry but I just don't think selling Blackman and Sa left us that short of recognised goalscorers or potential firepower to excuse the poor performance since Christmas.

[Hoop Blah]

simon church scores at a significantly improved rate to our strikers this season

And that sums up how badly they've under performed not how poor they are as players.

Just to remind you, Simon Cox scored 8 goals from 21 starts before Christmas last season but you're telling me he's just too shit to score goals in the Championship.

I'm happy to disagree on it, I suppose I can't help it if you're happy to be wrong....

what is simon coxes overall goal scoring record, at this or any other level?
hes not a striker. hes not ever going to form part of an effective strike force.
because he scored 8 goals in 21 games in one tiny patch doesn't change that.



also- it doesn't really matter what they've done it the past. they may have been decent enough once, but they are no longer.

I posted Cox's scoring record above....it's 91 goals in 341 games of which 89 where off the subs bench. It's not the most prolific but then neither is Blackman's record of 53 in 234 either.

I'd accept that perhaps Cox and Kermogant's best days are behind them but you said we had no recognised goalscorers left. The one's we had left have pretty much the same pedigree as the ones we sold, and we still had the best of the lot still in the squad. We just couldn't, for whatever reason, get a good enough return from them.

[Extended-Phenotype]

I'd agree you'd still have hoped for a bigger impact but you can see quite clearly where and why it all went south.

I'd argue that selling Blackman (2 goals in 13 games) wasn't actually that big an issue

Kinda picking a patch of form to suit you're argument there. When it comes down to it, you're guessing that our remaining strikers had the ability to score as much or more than you'd guess Blackman/Sa would had they stayed.

So it's a bit weak to declare Brendy is wrong because of two variables you have just guessed, imo