BFTG - Hull

[Oilroyal]

I believe that players are frightened of trying anything through fear of being lambasted by the idiots that boo.

Think it's more to do with the reaction from Jaap after the game towards the player. There's a reason why we don't have a settled 11

[RoystonRoyals]

Far too many 5/10 performances across the pitch yesterday and until Jon Daði Bodvarsson came on and scored it looked like the players were happy to pass there way too a 1-0 defeat.

For me the off the ball movement was terrible, so many times our defenders had no real passing options and when it was passed forward the first pass came straight back to them, it doesn’t mattter how many strikers are on the pitch if you don’t make runs you won’t create anything. Perhaps this is down to new players learning the system and integrating into the side. We saw it a bit last season especially at the beginning (maybe masked by a few 1-0 win)

We have had a slow start but know need for all this panic. Against Villa we were excellent we just need these new signings to get used to the system. On the plus side last year we played terrible we would lose by 3 goals, now we are getting draws .

[bcubed]

^
Those 100 fans were easily out singing us

Not really. Both sets were silent for large portions.

We all know it's easier to make noise away, higher proportion of vocal and committed fans, closer together.

Hull only 'outsang' us when they sang and we didn't.

Yes really

They sang we didn't

And let's face it our fans had nothing to get the slightest bit excited about

[Snowflake Royal]

I don't agree the Kelly - Ilori swap was a formation change sub.

We went from three centre backs, two wing backs and two midfielders (McShane, Moore, Berg - Gunter, Obita - Edwards, Kelly) to three actual centre backs, two wing backs and two midfielders (McShane, Moore, Ilori - Gunter, Obita - Berg, Edwards)

Our passing improved not because Kelly went off, but because Ilori is more comfortable bringing the ball out from defence than Berg who'd previously been restricted to the safe option as the last line.


If you play a pass out from the back game it needs to work in waves.

The back line need to be given the option of, and take, either the simple short ball forward into feet, or the long diagonal into the channel. These are low chance of dangerous turn over balls. We're fine at this.

The next wave is midfield, who need to play the higher reward passes interchanging between them, threading through tight gaps, taking someone on or spreading play. They can do this because thry should have the safety net of the set defence behind them. This is what we do badly, as often it u st goes back to defence because the other midfielders / attackers not on the ball are standing and watching.

Then the final wave is in attack where the cross, one-two, through ball etc should happen. Again, not great here. Too static. Multiple players making the same runs, not really attacking the right places.

Our problems are a combination of not thinking a couple of steps ahead of the play, that weird imbalance of either not taking responsibility to try to make something happen, or trying to force something to happen immediately on your own, and overthinking with no instinctive play.

[Snowflake Royal]

^
Those 100 fans were easily out singing us

Not really. Both sets were silent for large portions.

We all know it's easier to make noise away, higher proportion of vocal and committed fans, closer together.

Hull only 'outsang' us when they sang and we didn't.

Yes really

They sang we didn't

And let's face it our fans had nothing to get the slightest bit excited about

I heard us sing a fair amount considering. Maybe you're in an acoustic deadspot.

[72 bus]

Maybe you're in an acoustic deadspot.

He was, it's called the Madejski stadium

[Hound]

Maybe you're in an acoustic deadspot.

He was, it's called the Madejski stadium

Barely heard either sets of fans really.

[leon]

Typical self hating reading fans.

Our team plays appallingly badly (and not for the first time) and all we can do is blame ourselves.

I'm not going to dance and sing whilst McShane passes to Moore who then passes back to McShane who then passes to Blackett who then dawdles on the ball and runs into an opposition player.

Sorry, I'm not. It's shit. Stam needs to sort it out. Not us.

[genome]

Maybe you're in an acoustic deadspot.

He was, it's called the Madejski stadium

[Stranded]

I don't agree the Kelly - Ilori swap was a formation change sub.

We went from three centre backs, two wing backs and two midfielders (McShane, Moore, Berg - Gunter, Obita - Edwards, Kelly) to three actual centre backs, two wing backs and two midfielders (McShane, Moore, Ilori - Gunter, Obita - Berg, Edwards)

VDB was not playing as a CB. He and Edwards were sat in front of the back 4. It was a pretty standard 4-3-3. VDB dropped back a bit of one of the full backs bombed on.

The change with Kelly switched this to a 3-4-3, the full backs essentially becoming wide midfielders, with less defensive duty. The 2 CMs were players who could tackle, pass the ball and in Edwards make late runs where the opprtunity arose. Obita could play this more advanced role well as he started as a winger, Gunter struggled, which is why he made way for JDB and McLeary (I think) dropped back with Aluko moving out of the centre to have JDB as a focal point. It was a pretty distinct change in the way we were playing that helped get us back in the game.

[LWJ]

I don't agree the Kelly - Ilori swap was a formation change sub.

We went from three centre backs, two wing backs and two midfielders (McShane, Moore, Berg - Gunter, Obita - Edwards, Kelly) to three actual centre backs, two wing backs and two midfielders (McShane, Moore, Ilori - Gunter, Obita - Berg, Edwards)

VDB was not playing as a CB. He and Edwards were sat in front of the back 4. It was a pretty standard 4-3-3. VDB dropped back a bit of one of the full backs bombed on.

The change with Kelly switched this to a 3-4-3, the full backs essentially becoming wide midfielders, with less defensive duty. The 2 CMs were players who could tackle, pass the ball and in Edwards make late runs where the opprtunity arose. Obita could play this more advanced role well as he started as a winger, Gunter struggled, which is why he made way for JDB and McLeary (I think) dropped back with Aluko moving out of the centre to have JDB as a focal point. It was a pretty distinct change in the way we were playing that helped get us back in the game.

+1

[NewCorkSeth]

I'm a little late to the party here but I had a few thoughts from the stream.
Van Den Berg offers little from a starting position. He's probably best left as an impact sub when chasing a game. He moves too much with the ball and often runs himself into a position where he has to force a pass then bemoans the other players for not giving him options.
The floating front 3 was useless. McCleary and Beerens isolated by the deep dropping Aluko. Both played poorly. The need for a person to connect possession in midfield to attack could well be answered by Aluko BUT we must give up the 3 at the back. If we play the exact same way with JVDB swapped out for JDB we would have walked that game.
A 4-3-3 with Aluko playing as an AMC behind McCleary, Beerens and JDB would have been perfect.
As I mentioned in the game thread the issue was not creativity it was poor tactical positioning. Aluko often started a good move in midfield which went out to the wings quickly and efficiently but fell apart as there was nobody in the box to receive the ball. By the time Aluko had gotten forward 5 defenders had gotten back.

Formation must change.

[Snowflake Royal]

I don't agree the Kelly - Ilori swap was a formation change sub.

We went from three centre backs, two wing backs and two midfielders (McShane, Moore, Berg - Gunter, Obita - Edwards, Kelly) to three actual centre backs, two wing backs and two midfielders (McShane, Moore, Ilori - Gunter, Obita - Berg, Edwards)

VDB was not playing as a CB. He and Edwards were sat in front of the back 4. It was a pretty standard 4-3-3. VDB dropped back a bit of one of the full backs bombed on.

The change with Kelly switched this to a 3-4-3, the full backs essentially becoming wide midfielders, with less defensive duty. The 2 CMs were players who could tackle, pass the ball and in Edwards make late runs where the opprtunity arose. Obita could play this more advanced role well as he started as a winger, Gunter struggled, which is why he made way for JDB and McLeary (I think) dropped back with Aluko moving out of the centre to have JDB as a focal point. It was a pretty distinct change in the way we were playing that helped get us back in the game.

It certainly started like that, but after we conceeded Berg was very clearly mainly playing as the LCB. He may not have supposed to been, but that's where he was.

[NewCorkSeth]

I don't agree the Kelly - Ilori swap was a formation change sub.

We went from three centre backs, two wing backs and two midfielders (McShane, Moore, Berg - Gunter, Obita - Edwards, Kelly) to three actual centre backs, two wing backs and two midfielders (McShane, Moore, Ilori - Gunter, Obita - Berg, Edwards)

VDB was not playing as a CB. He and Edwards were sat in front of the back 4. It was a pretty standard 4-3-3. VDB dropped back a bit of one of the full backs bombed on.

The change with Kelly switched this to a 3-4-3, the full backs essentially becoming wide midfielders, with less defensive duty. The 2 CMs were players who could tackle, pass the ball and in Edwards make late runs where the opprtunity arose. Obita could play this more advanced role well as he started as a winger, Gunter struggled, which is why he made way for JDB and McLeary (I think) dropped back with Aluko moving out of the centre to have JDB as a focal point. It was a pretty distinct change in the way we were playing that helped get us back in the game.

Respectfully disagree. JVDB played as a CB by most definitions. He was the most advanced of the CBs for sure but was certainly one. Oh standard positioning was -
---------------Mannone
----McShane--Moore--JVDB
Gunter------------------------Blackett
---------Edwards----Kelly
McCleary------Aluko------Beerens

Blackett and Gunter spent most of the match ahead of Kelly who played quite deep for long periods and Aluko spent most his time lurking around the centre of the pitch. Edwards drifted left for most of the game and JVDB rarely if ever came forward for any other reason than to receive a pass when we needed to shift it to the other side of the pitch.
We had either very poor tactical positioning or very poor positional discipline.

[Snowflake Royal]

If anyone is unconvinced by Berg being at Centreback for large swathes of the game, have a look at his heat map on whoscored and compare it to McShane for example.

[paddy20]

Theres a lot of tactical thoughts here but the main,main, problem was that when we were attacking there was at most 1 or 2 players against 6/7 of theirs in the box. Often when we were attacking we had 5 players in our own half! Simple numbers game and of course no-one had any chance of winning headers without the striker. Apart from having a great shot outside of the box most goals come from inside it.

When Bodvarson came on the game changed. He's not great although on Saturday he looked world class after what went on before. As for Gunter I think he's a 6/10 for most games but rarely anything above or below. I'm not sure if he's just ultra cautious or Stam has told him to play that way. I suspect the former.

If we are going to play wing backs you can't use Gunter or Blackett as they can't do it. Stam has to change tactics and play to the strengths of his players not the other way round.

[NewCorkSeth]

If anyone is unconvinced by Berg being at Centreback for large swathes of the game, have a look at his heat map on whoscored and compare it to McShane for example.

Or.. they could have used their eyes while watching the game.. I didn't know who scored did heat maps. That's really quite useful.

[Snowflake Royal]

If anyone is unconvinced by Berg being at Centreback for large swathes of the game, have a look at his heat map on whoscored and compare it to McShane for example.

Or.. they could have used their eyes while watching the game.. I didn't know who scored did heat maps. That's really quite useful.

Well that doesn't seem to have worked for everyone. It's certainly how I worked it out though.

[Wycombe Royal]

I'm going to stick up for Gunter a bit. There were numerous times when he got the ball and looked to go forward and make a forward pass only to realise that the 3 "floating" attacking players were all in central and left positions meaning he either had to take the ball forward himself and take on the two Hull players in front of him or turn round and pass sideways or back. Long gone are the days of Gunter and McCleary working as team down the wing.....

[bcubed]

I'm going to stick up for Gunter a bit. There were numerous times when he got the ball and looked to go forward and make a forward pass only to realise that the 3 "floating" attacking players were all in central and left positions meaning he either had to take the ball forward himself and take on the two Hull players in front of him or turn round and pass sideways or back. Long gone are the days of Gunter and McCleary working as team down the wing.....

Exactly this

But some people wouldn't give Gunter credit if he scored a hat trick

The Gunter McLeary partnership is proven. its a shame we don't see it any more.