In or Out?

[Hound]

One thing from the last few weeks - those October games don't look quite so tough now

Leeds have lost 3 in 4 (I think), Sheff Utd have been good but lost on Saturday to an average Forest side, and Boro have been pretty useless recently

[Snowflake Royal]

One thing from the last few weeks - those October games don't look quite so tough now

Leeds have lost 3 in 4 (I think), Sheff Utd have been good but lost on Saturday to an average Forest side, and Boro have been pretty useless recently

Even worse given we're the charity that keeps on giving.

[West Stand Man]

I'm angry and want to rant

JS has been in charge for 1 year and 97 days. That is 1 year... and 3 months.

In his first year he defied ALL expectations, critics, fans by finishing 3rd. He AGAIN defied the odds by getting to the final and narrowly missed out on promotion.

In his second season he has had just 10 games.

Let me also remind some that people were jizzing themselves over some of our summer signings and all very happy and content. Also we were jizzing ourselves over the win against Birmingham and Aston Villa.

How times have changed - just 5/6 games later and people are suggesting sacking him? For what? Dull football... sh*t tactics... his attitude? Welcome to the Championship.

I am staggered by those who believe he should be sacked. I've asked some on Twitter... "ok, we sack him... what's the big plan now?"

The answer - "Get a new manager". I know how it goes as well:

*** New Manager... doesn't do very well but it's his first season and it's not his team he's inherited. It will be far better after the summer transfer window.

*** Transfer window - OMG this is amazing, I can not believe we bought XXX and YYY. I'm predicting a top 6 finish. "Joe Blogg's Barmy Army!!!"

*** 10 games in and 18th in the league... right one more game and he needs to go, this is appalling. Why did he sign XXX and YYY anyway? They're sh*t.

*** Manager Sacked

<repeat the above process>

I completely agree that the football is turgid and I wish I had stayed at home yesterday evening and nursed my man flu. Instead I traipsed through Whitley to watch uninspiring football. But really, do you want to be a club who continually just ships managers in... and ships managers out?

There are tons of clubs who would dream of having a manager like Jaap Stam, with connections, respect within the game, etc... and it's so early in my opinion to even consider him going. What happened to BUILDING a team? To actually spending a year or two developing the squad, working out tactics, finding our way?

I don't agree entirely with JS's tactics or choices at the time, but is that really a reason to throw our toys out the pram?

If you disagree, then once again I ask you, what is the grand plan? Who is your next promising manager (aka scapegoat) that is going to secure us promotion (or get sacked after 1 year and 3 months)?

............

Edit: oh and I also think sometimes we need to look at who we're playing. Norwich are no walkovers, unbeaten in 7, some good players and the general consensus from neutrals is that we didn't play badly, but we just didn't break Norwich down and they were ultimately better - but not much better.

I admire your passion. I even get much of your ire in that rant.

My issue is not just the results. I could put up with poor results, I have been following this mob since 1960 so I have seen plenty of bad results and bad runs of results, what irks me is that we are not playing a style that is even marginally entertaining. We haven't seen an entertaining team for a few years now. I can deal with losing if I have seen us put in an exciting show; over the years we have been a club whose style was, generally, not to dominate possession but to hit hard when we did get it. We, the fans, have been used to seeing teams that break down the opposition by attrition, absorbing their energy and then hitting hard and fast on the counter. That was fun to watch; sure it resulted in a few unexpected defeats but it was still fun. Watching this lot dominate possession in our half doesn't light my fire. It may be 'great football' in the modern style but entertaining it most definitely is not. The proof of the pudding is there in the crowds that are pretty quiet and slightly down (I think) on recent years.

Having said that, I don't call for Stam's removal. I am sure that he can see that this is not delivering either success (this season) or entertainment. Last season it was equally unentertaining but at least we snuck up the league. I suspect that he can turn it round and make the, relatively small, adjustments that still play to the strengths of this squad yet deliver both more entertainment and good results. In fact I reckon he is as frustrated as we are. I'll bet they don't practise possession in the defensive half with no changes in pace and virtually no threat on goal. He has got to get them delivering what they are actually practising.

[windermereROYAL]

I'm angry and want to rant

JS has been in charge for 1 year and 97 days. That is 1 year... and 3 months.

In his first year he defied ALL expectations, critics, fans by finishing 3rd. He AGAIN defied the odds by getting to the final and narrowly missed out on promotion.

In his second season he has had just 10 games.

Let me also remind some that people were jizzing themselves over some of our summer signings and all very happy and content. Also we were jizzing ourselves over the win against Birmingham and Aston Villa.

How times have changed - just 5/6 games later and people are suggesting sacking him? For what? Dull football... sh*t tactics... his attitude? Welcome to the Championship.

I am staggered by those who believe he should be sacked. I've asked some on Twitter... "ok, we sack him... what's the big plan now?"

The answer - "Get a new manager". I know how it goes as well:

*** New Manager... doesn't do very well but it's his first season and it's not his team he's inherited. It will be far better after the summer transfer window.

*** Transfer window - OMG this is amazing, I can not believe we bought XXX and YYY. I'm predicting a top 6 finish. "Joe Blogg's Barmy Army!!!"

*** 10 games in and 18th in the league... right one more game and he needs to go, this is appalling. Why did he sign XXX and YYY anyway? They're sh*t.

*** Manager Sacked

<repeat the above process>

I completely agree that the football is turgid and I wish I had stayed at home yesterday evening and nursed my man flu. Instead I traipsed through Whitley to watch uninspiring football. But really, do you want to be a club who continually just ships managers in... and ships managers out?

There are tons of clubs who would dream of having a manager like Jaap Stam, with connections, respect within the game, etc... and it's so early in my opinion to even consider him going. What happened to BUILDING a team? To actually spending a year or two developing the squad, working out tactics, finding our way?

I don't agree entirely with JS's tactics or choices at the time, but is that really a reason to throw our toys out the pram?

If you disagree, then once again I ask you, what is the grand plan? Who is your next promising manager (aka scapegoat) that is going to secure us promotion (or get sacked after 1 year and 3 months)?

............

Edit: oh and I also think sometimes we need to look at who we're playing. Norwich are no walkovers, unbeaten in 7, some good players and the general consensus from neutrals is that we didn't play badly, but we just didn't break Norwich down and they were ultimately better - but not much better.

I admire your passion. I even get much of your ire in that rant.

My issue is not just the results. I could put up with poor results, I have been following this mob since 1960 so I have seen plenty of bad results and bad runs of results, what irks me is that we are not playing a style that is even marginally entertaining. We haven't seen an entertaining team for a few years now. I can deal with losing if I have seen us put in an exciting show; over the years we have been a club whose style was, generally, not to dominate possession but to hit hard when we did get it. We, the fans, have been used to seeing teams that break down the opposition by attrition, absorbing their energy and then hitting hard and fast on the counter. That was fun to watch; sure it resulted in a few unexpected defeats but it was still fun. Watching this lot dominate possession in our half doesn't light my fire. It may be 'great football' in the modern style but entertaining it most definitely is not. The proof of the pudding is there in the crowds that are pretty quiet and slightly down (I think) on recent years.

Having said that, I don't call for Stam's removal. I am sure that he can see that this is not delivering either success (this season) or entertainment. Last season it was equally unentertaining but at least we snuck up the league. I suspect that he can turn it round and make the, relatively small, adjustments that still play to the strengths of this squad yet deliver both more entertainment and good results. In fact I reckon he is as frustrated as we are. I'll bet they don't practise possession in the defensive half with no changes in pace and virtually no threat on goal. He has got to get them delivering what they are actually practising.

On the whole I agree with most of this, but saying we dominate possession in our own half is just plain wrong. we have lots of attacking moves, however its the final third where we break down time and again. no threat whatever. maybe a striker the can hold it up and bring others into play may help Mr Stam?

[bcubed]

I don't see any improvement over last year.

Instead I see similar dreary football, just without Kermogant winning every header at set pieces in our half and without the odd miraculous save from AAH.
result - we still don't play good entertaining football and we now lose instead of draw or win.
How many games did we have last year where people came away saying how did we win that?! Well without Kermy and AAH we can't

I quite like Stam - he seems honourable and straight talking (too straight talking for his own good recently) but I honestly can't see him turning things around.

[leon]

In many ways Stam is doing the wrong thing in the right way with our forwards right now.

He's actually picked the same attacking line up three games in a row to give them a chance to develop an understanding and effectiveness.

The problem is its the wrong forward line and he keeps chopping and changing in midfield and defence.

Hopefully Barrow can have an impact now he's back. He's looked by far our most creative player. A front three of Barrow, Bodvarsson and Aluko should have pace, movement and creativity to burn. That in turn should help give the defence and midfield more options.

If he chooses 3 CBs I'd like to see Gunter dropped and McCleary at RWB... would leave us a bit light in midfield with only two to accomodate that though.

Why drop Gunter? He does a job. He's not a liability. He tracks back FFS?

Madness.

[bcubed]

In many ways Stam is doing the wrong thing in the right way with our forwards right now.

He's actually picked the same attacking line up three games in a row to give them a chance to develop an understanding and effectiveness.

The problem is its the wrong forward line and he keeps chopping and changing in midfield and defence.

Hopefully Barrow can have an impact now he's back. He's looked by far our most creative player. A front three of Barrow, Bodvarsson and Aluko should have pace, movement and creativity to burn. That in turn should help give the defence and midfield more options.

If he chooses 3 CBs I'd like to see Gunter dropped and McCleary at RWB... would leave us a bit light in midfield with only two to accomodate that though.

Why drop Gunter? He does a job. He's not a liability. He tracks back FFS?

Madness.

Because he has a preconceived bias about the bloke, hence scores of 2 or 3

As said in the Gunter thread he's by far the worst problem right now

[PistolPete]

Stuck me, watching Everton yesterday, how similar they are to us at the moment.

Both have dutch managers, both have a raft of new players, both a gap up top where their striker used to be (Lukaku and Kermorgant) and both are lacking confidence. It's amazing how players think before they pass or shoot when you're doing badly!

If Stam should go, so should Koeman.

Personally, I think both are good managers and unless you can bring in Ancelotti or Karanka (or similarly better managers), both should stay - fortunes will turn!

[Sutekh]

Stuck me, watching Everton yesterday, how similar they are to us at the moment.

Both have dutch managers, both have a raft of new players, both a gap up top where their striker used to be (Lukaku and Kermorgant) and both are lacking confidence. It's amazing how players think before they pass or shoot when you're doing badly!

If Stam should go, so should Koeman.

Personally, I think both are good managers and unless you can bring in Ancelotti or Karanka (or similarly better managers), both should stay - fortunes will turn!

Ancelotti the next Reading manager

[PistolPete]

Haha - Karanka was more our league

[paddy20]

Blame the club for not signing a striker. Its always risky leaving it to the last days of the window. The real problem was not signing a decent striker last year to take over from an ageing Kermogant. I bet we could have got most of our targets for much less had we acted then.

[Snowflake Royal]

In many ways Stam is doing the wrong thing in the right way with our forwards right now.

He's actually picked the same attacking line up three games in a row to give them a chance to develop an understanding and effectiveness.

The problem is its the wrong forward line and he keeps chopping and changing in midfield and defence.

Hopefully Barrow can have an impact now he's back. He's looked by far our most creative player. A front three of Barrow, Bodvarsson and Aluko should have pace, movement and creativity to burn. That in turn should help give the defence and midfield more options.

If he chooses 3 CBs I'd like to see Gunter dropped and McCleary at RWB... would leave us a bit light in midfield with only two to accomodate that though.

Why drop Gunter? He does a job. He's not a liability. He tracks back FFS?

Madness.

Because he's incredibly negative and cautious and that makes for a pretty atrocious wing back. You expect wing backs to take on their defender occasionally. McCleary's not the player he was so shouldn't play ahead of Aluko or Barrow, maybe even Popa and Beerens as a forward for full on winger, but he defends reasonably well and would be a big improvement on Gunter going forward.

If you're going to build from the back, it's important to have positive players to carry the ball from defence and pass forward. Gunter does neither often enough.

And I don't like him.

[bcubed]

Let's just pop this over here as well shall we?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41469355

[PistolPete]

Let's just pop this over here as well shall we?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41469355

Haha, that is ridiculous!!

[Denver Royal]

Let's just pop this over here as well shall we?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41469355

Haha, that is ridiculous!!

Legend.

[Rea Ding]

Stay.

[Snowflake Royal]

Let's just pop this over here as well shall we?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41469355

If Gunter played for us like he does for Wales, I'd like him a whole lot more.

It's not exactly a rebuttal of any of the criticisms of him.

The sole arguments in favour of Gunter tend to rely not on how he plays for us, but that he plays for Wales and gets picked by multiple managers. Three out of four of whom's management during Gunter's presence at our club were unsuccessful and in some cases widely derided.

Not very convincing.

[Old Man Andrews]

There is zero point in sacking him right now IMO. If we continue on this run and are down the bottom by mid-December then sure get a new man in but it is only early October. There is so much time to turn our season around and move up the table. The most concerning thing about him is the lack of ability to adapt or come up with a plan B. I think in football you have to have that back up plan for when your plan A isn't working.

[Snowball]

Snowflake has spoken. "Gunter Useless". Close Thread.

[Old Boy Blue]

I'm in the out camp or if he stays Stam has to very much raise his game this season.
His first mistake was a very much understated pre-season with his behind closed doors games, only one public friendly and in my view he was 2 or 3 games short in bring fully prepared. This was confirmed with a lousy performance at QPR and we have been playing catch up ever since. The loss of Steven Reid was also very concrrning, why didn't Stam give him a new contract when handing them out to his Dutch pals?
Secondly recruitment and forming a well balanced squad has been appalling. Everyone knows we are desperatly short of a goalscorer but we also have no adequate cover/competition for Gunter or Obita. Of the 25 senior players 8 are midfielders and 6 wingers competing for only 5 places between them. If all were fit you would have 9 players peed off with not playing, not good for group morale!
Stam needs to ship 4 of these out in January get 2 full backs and a striker in and loan Mendes out if he is ever fit.
This misbalance in the group has led to confusion in Stams own mind as he chops and changes every game and does not appear to have a clue what his best side is or even which formation to play.
The obsession with possession has led to a team more concerned with not giving the ball away then going out and winning football matches.
Stam has not helped his cause by not playing a striker at all lately despite awful results and has compouned it all by stupid remarks in the press.
It does appear he is safe for now but i hope he uses the International break to have a long hard look at himself and comeback with at least a very spirited performance at Leeds.