MATCHWATCH : Leeds United (h) sponsored by Brian McDermott

[Snowflake Royal]

Yep yep yep.

Same manager across four or five windows bringing in two or three of the right players of quality each time and a couple of punts / stop gaps.

Sort out the fitness and medical issuse so we can maintain a smaller squad and use thr Academy for cover and just trim the fat right back...

And if anyone is interested in the likes of Moore, Barrow, Bod, Swift, Blackett, Baldock, etc cash in.

What you're describing here is more or less a complete squad overhaul.

Would you see relegation as a complete disaster or more of an opportunity for a fresh start?

A complete squad overhaul conducted over two and a half full seasons... or in other words not a complete overhaul.

I see relegation as a potential disaster, a big opportunity and a blessed relief from another shit Championship relegation fight.

[URZZZZ]

Premiership Quality[/b]
Martinez

Promotion Chasing Quality
Oliveira

Mid table Championship Quality
Yiadom
Swift
Rinomhota
Baker
Miazga
Ezatolohi (but always injured)
Barrow
McCleary
Bod (but always injured)
Baldock (but always injured)
Obita (?)
Moore
Meite
Ejaria

Not Championship Quality
Blackett
Richards (yet)
Loader (yet)
Kelly
Gunter
McShane
O Shea
Walker
McNulty
Meyler

Would try to keep all except the bottom section and add a couple. Sell anyone who a decent offer comes in for. Obvs we wouldn't be able to afford all the loanees of course

“Not championship quality” yet four of them were regular starters when we came 3rd

Yeah I understand mcshane has regressed with age but gunter Blackett and kelly are more than good enough for the championship, albeit at a lower level

80% of this squad is lower champ level, I think you’re a bit optimistic with mid table quality with the majority TBH. Only ones that look anywhere near adequate enough for a topish champ team is rino, moore (but not as a ball player), and at a push bodvarsson (obviously excluding loans)

[Hound]

well yeah its a basic game, but its roughly where I see the players. Obvs others would have different opinions.

Regarding the 4 PO players though - McShane is knackered, just old age. Kelly has definitely regressed but wasn't much of a fan anyway. Gunter regressed quite a bit imo. Blackett was probably borderline on the two groups for me, maybe treated him a bit harshly. But he isn't great. I don't think because they were in a team 2 years ago when we doing quite well is really a sound basis to judge where they are now. None of them were key players that year.

I'm talking mid table (between about 9th and 15th) when I say mid. Not upper mid.

[URZZZZ]

well yeah its a basic game, but its roughly where I see the players. Obvs others would have different opinions.

Regarding the 4 PO players though - McShane is knackered, just old age. Kelly has definitely regressed but wasn't much of a fan anyway. Gunter regressed quite a bit imo. Blackett was probably borderline on the two groups for me, maybe treated him a bit harshly. But he isn't great. I don't think because they were in a team 2 years ago when we doing quite well is really a sound basis to judge where they are now. None of them were key players that year.

I'm talking mid table (between about 9th and 15th) when I say mid. Not upper mid.

I wouldn’t say Gunter has regressed, Gunter will just always be Gunter, a good reader of the game but just a bit meh

I wouldn’t say we had a key player that year, just 11 hard working individuals with balance and structure - something were seriously lacking now!

[Old Man Andrews]

well yeah its a basic game, but its roughly where I see the players. Obvs others would have different opinions.

Regarding the 4 PO players though - McShane is knackered, just old age. Kelly has definitely regressed but wasn't much of a fan anyway. Gunter regressed quite a bit imo. Blackett was probably borderline on the two groups for me, maybe treated him a bit harshly. But he isn't great. I don't think because they were in a team 2 years ago when we doing quite well is really a sound basis to judge where they are now. None of them were key players that year.

I'm talking mid table (between about 9th and 15th) when I say mid. Not upper mid.

I wouldn’t say Gunter has regressed, Gunter will just always be Gunter, a good reader of the game but just a bit meh

I wouldn’t say we had a key player that year, just 11 hard working individuals with balance and structure - something were seriously lacking now!

Martinez, Moore and Oliveira are all key players.

[URZZZZ]

well yeah its a basic game, but its roughly where I see the players. Obvs others would have different opinions.

Regarding the 4 PO players though - McShane is knackered, just old age. Kelly has definitely regressed but wasn't much of a fan anyway. Gunter regressed quite a bit imo. Blackett was probably borderline on the two groups for me, maybe treated him a bit harshly. But he isn't great. I don't think because they were in a team 2 years ago when we doing quite well is really a sound basis to judge where they are now. None of them were key players that year.

I'm talking mid table (between about 9th and 15th) when I say mid. Not upper mid.

I wouldn’t say Gunter has regressed, Gunter will just always be Gunter, a good reader of the game but just a bit meh

I wouldn’t say we had a key player that year, just 11 hard working individuals with balance and structure - something were seriously lacking now!

Martinez, Moore and Oliveira are all key players.

Yeah that’s my point - success isn’t based on how many “key players” you have - it’s based on how well structured your team is

We’ve got “individual” players at the moment, we had 11 team players back then. Big difference

Wouldn’t say Moore is a key player ether but each to their own

[Hound]

well yeah its a basic game, but its roughly where I see the players. Obvs others would have different opinions.

Regarding the 4 PO players though - McShane is knackered, just old age. Kelly has definitely regressed but wasn't much of a fan anyway. Gunter regressed quite a bit imo. Blackett was probably borderline on the two groups for me, maybe treated him a bit harshly. But he isn't great. I don't think because they were in a team 2 years ago when we doing quite well is really a sound basis to judge where they are now. None of them were key players that year.

I'm talking mid table (between about 9th and 15th) when I say mid. Not upper mid.

I wouldn’t say Gunter has regressed, Gunter will just always be Gunter, a good reader of the game but just a bit meh

I wouldn’t say we had a key player that year, just 11 hard working individuals with balance and structure - something were seriously lacking now!

Id say AAH, Yann and Moore + (GMac and Beerens pre-Christmas, Obita and Williams post-Christmas) were very very much key players

[Old Man Andrews]

I wouldn’t say Gunter has regressed, Gunter will just always be Gunter, a good reader of the game but just a bit meh

I wouldn’t say we had a key player that year, just 11 hard working individuals with balance and structure - something were seriously lacking now!

Martinez, Moore and Oliveira are all key players.

Yeah that’s my point - success isn’t based on how many “key players” you have - it’s based on how well structured your team is

We’ve got “individual” players at the moment, we had 11 team players back then. Big difference

Wouldn’t say Moore is a key player ether but each to their own

Moore is most certainly key at the moment when you consider the replacement is McShane.

[URZZZZ]

well yeah its a basic game, but its roughly where I see the players. Obvs others would have different opinions.

Regarding the 4 PO players though - McShane is knackered, just old age. Kelly has definitely regressed but wasn't much of a fan anyway. Gunter regressed quite a bit imo. Blackett was probably borderline on the two groups for me, maybe treated him a bit harshly. But he isn't great. I don't think because they were in a team 2 years ago when we doing quite well is really a sound basis to judge where they are now. None of them were key players that year.

I'm talking mid table (between about 9th and 15th) when I say mid. Not upper mid.

I wouldn’t say Gunter has regressed, Gunter will just always be Gunter, a good reader of the game but just a bit meh

I wouldn’t say we had a key player that year, just 11 hard working individuals with balance and structure - something were seriously lacking now!

Id say AAH, Yann and Moore + (GMac and Beerens pre-Christmas, Obita and Williams post-Christmas) were very very much key players

AAH, yann, beerens, and Williams were heavily criticised during the season. Blackett was preferred to obita most the time. I’ll give you moore that season

But those players were criticised a hell of a lot more than Martinez, Miazga, yiadom, rino, Oliveira this season etc...

[Hound]

I wouldn’t say Gunter has regressed, Gunter will just always be Gunter, a good reader of the game but just a bit meh

I wouldn’t say we had a key player that year, just 11 hard working individuals with balance and structure - something were seriously lacking now!

Id say AAH, Yann and Moore + (GMac and Beerens pre-Christmas, Obita and Williams post-Christmas) were very very much key players

AAH, yann, beerens, and Williams were heavily criticised during the season. Blackett was preferred to obita most the time. I’ll give you moore that season

But those players were criticised a hell of a lot more than Martinez, Miazga, yiadom, rino, Oliveira this season etc...

Like I said, Beerens before Christmas when he was great (form tailed off) and Williams and Obita after Christmas when they were in the team and firing.

AAH was barely criticised at all that year. Nor Yann once he was fit.

I agree with quite a bit of what you say, but don't think you can really believe Yann and AAH weren't key in 16/17

[URZZZZ]

Id say AAH, Yann and Moore + (GMac and Beerens pre-Christmas, Obita and Williams post-Christmas) were very very much key players

AAH, yann, beerens, and Williams were heavily criticised during the season. Blackett was preferred to obita most the time. I’ll give you moore that season

But those players were criticised a hell of a lot more than Martinez, Miazga, yiadom, rino, Oliveira this season etc...

Like I said, Beerens before Christmas when he was great (form tailed off) and Williams and Obita after Christmas when they were in the team and firing.

AAH was barely criticised at all that year. Nor Yann once he was fit.

I agree with quite a bit of what you say, but don't think you can really believe Yann and AAH weren't key in 16/17

I suppose what I’m trying to say is if yann had a bad game, you knew others would deliver in place of him

If nelson or rino have a bad game, we really struggle (yes I know we scored three against Wigan but it was actually a shocking display and all three shouldn’t have counted anyway)

[SCIAG]

Don't think Martinez is remotely Premiership quality. He's better than Jaakola and Walker, yes, but they're League One goalkeepers. Martinez costs us goals regularly and isn't on the level of keepers like Federici or Al Habsi who hardly established themselves as PL goalkeepers, let alone Shaka, Marcus, or McCarthy. His career trajectory to date is practically the same as Mannone's and I don't see much reason for that to change. The idea that he's two divisions better than Gunter and Kelly seems rather one-eyed to me.

[Old Man Andrews]

Don't think Martinez is remotely Premiership quality. He's better than Jaakola and Walker, yes, but they're League One goalkeepers. Martinez costs us goals regularly and isn't on the level of keepers like Federici or Al Habsi who hardly established themselves as PL goalkeepers, let alone Shaka, Marcus, or McCarthy. His career trajectory to date is practically the same as Mannone's and I don't see much reason for that to change. The idea that he's two divisions better than Gunter and Kelly seems rather one-eyed to me.

Arguably he has cost us 2 goals. Not quite regularly is it?

[Hendo]

Don't think Martinez is remotely Premiership quality. He's better than Jaakola and Walker, yes, but they're League One goalkeepers. Martinez costs us goals regularly and isn't on the level of keepers like Federici or Al Habsi who hardly established themselves as PL goalkeepers, let alone Shaka, Marcus, or McCarthy. His career trajectory to date is practically the same as Mannone's and I don't see much reason for that to change. The idea that he's two divisions better than Gunter and Kelly seems rather one-eyed to me.

Arguably he has cost us 2 goals. Not quite regularly is it?

Agreed with this, I can only think of 2 at a push - Blackburn he could've done better with and Wigan's second, although they still had a massive slice of luck following the error. Don't recall the goals v Sheff Utd so maybe one in there?

And isn't on the level of Feds or AAH? Have you seen Martinez play, just curious? I would put him way ahead of both.

[Old Man Andrews]

More importantly how many certain goals has he saved us from conceding? Countless. With Walker or Jaakkola in goal we would be firmly in the relegation zone imo.

[Singing Defective]

I’ve just about unfrozen from last night. And that despite ethanol fortification beforehand.

The Championship gap top to bottom seems like the Premiership. And yesterday was the equivalent of ‘pool against ‘diff.

Love how the “big” (budget) clubs bring (bought) their own referees.

The worry for 2019 is that apart from Moore, all our “key” players are loanees. Core squad, anyone?

[Hound]

It wasn’t that cold

That’t be a summer evening for the Leeds boys

[SCIAG]

Don't think Martinez is remotely Premiership quality. He's better than Jaakola and Walker, yes, but they're League One goalkeepers. Martinez costs us goals regularly and isn't on the level of keepers like Federici or Al Habsi who hardly established themselves as PL goalkeepers, let alone Shaka, Marcus, or McCarthy. His career trajectory to date is practically the same as Mannone's and I don't see much reason for that to change. The idea that he's two divisions better than Gunter and Kelly seems rather one-eyed to me.

Arguably he has cost us 2 goals. Not quite regularly is it?

Agreed with this, I can only think of 2 at a push - Blackburn he could've done better with and Wigan's second, although they still had a massive slice of luck following the error. Don't recall the goals v Sheff Utd so maybe one in there?

And isn't on the level of Feds or AAH? Have you seen Martinez play, just curious? I would put him way ahead of both.

One of the goals against Sheffield United he passed it to one of their attackers. Three goals in nine games is pretty bad. Not bashing him by an means but I think making him out to be "too good for us" is overdoing it; this is his level.

Yes, I've seen him play. He's a long way off their standard. He has a good save in him but he's not on their level. Mid-table Championship goalkeeper in a lower Championship side, rather than a Premier League goalkeeper.