Opposition fans back from the game - 24/25 page 225 onwards

[Snowflake Royal]

What exactly does taking the knee do? It's just virtue signalling.

The obvious - unhelpful - retort is that in that case you shouldn’t be so strangely enraged by it.

The more helpful response is that there no “just” about it. Virtue signalling, as you put it, is useful because it shows us people’s values. When someone takes the knee, it’s their way of saying “I am prepared to do the bare minimum to oppose racism”. It means that the nasty people know that football isn’t on their side and that they aren’t welcome. And to a lesser extent, it means that people who are wary of racism know that football supports them. It means standing with Paul Canovile and Jason Roberts and Anton Ferdinand and Ali Al-Habsi and Yakou Meite. Same with the rainbow laces signalling opposition to homophobia and support for the LGBT+ community. Sure it’s not going to change many minds, but it sets the tone, and it makes the boneheads a little less confident and a little less willing to open their mouths.

And, of course, the gesture doesn’t stop them from doing anything else.

Well said.

If people want to make a symbol, that's their choice. Try backing them rather than belittling them.

[oldebiscuit]

I think the players and authorities have made quite clear what the motivation behind taking the knee is, its an honest gesture, not in itself confrontational and anyone arguing differently is either being thick or disingenuous.

I agree 100% that it is an honest and peaceful gesture and certainly not confrontational. What i am saying is that i feel (and others that i've spoken to in conversation), is that it has gone on for too long now. The message has been sent out, and we have all received.
But where does it go from here? Do we have start to have a regular gesture spot before each game to protest a social injustice that has been committed somewhere?

The biggest message from black people to white people at the height of the unrest was essentially

"Don't just make some meaningless posts and symbols on facebook etc and then just forget about us again without changing anything. Do something, make change happen and don't just think about racism for a week to make yourself feel better."

How about you let the people affected decide when they feel it's time to stop and not decide for them because you're bored of it. So oxf*rd what.

How about you let me make my own mind up? My opinion is my entitlement and none of your business.
And do you have to be abusive on a civilised debate? You lose any argument as soon as you become abusive.

[Jagermesiter1871]

I think the players and authorities have made quite clear what the motivation behind taking the knee is, its an honest gesture, not in itself confrontational and anyone arguing differently is either being thick or disingenuous.

I agree 100% that it is an honest and peaceful gesture and certainly not confrontational. What i am saying is that i feel (and others that i've spoken to in conversation), is that it has gone on for too long now. The message has been sent out, and we have all received.
But where does it go from here? Do we have start to have a regular gesture spot before each game to protest a social injustice that has been committed somewhere?

The biggest message from black people to white people at the height of the unrest was essentially

"Don't just make some meaningless posts and symbols on facebook etc and then just forget about us again without changing anything. Do something, make change happen and don't just think about racism for a week to make yourself feel better."

How about you let the people affected decide when they feel it's time to stop and not decide for them because you're bored of it. So oxf*rd what.

And what exactly is the token gesture of taking the knee doing other than meaningless virtue signalling and symbolism? I fail to see how it breaks down or stops any perceived institutional racism or police brutality? If anything its created more partisan behaviour, side picking and marginalisation. I generally consider myself to be fairly liberal and completely pro-equality but I also now fall into a segment that is all that but doesn't support BLM and token pre-match knee taking, fist raising and vague US-led protests. I also found the timing of the protests to be abhorrent, which is probably where the majority of my personal dislike for the BLM movement comes from.

[biff]

I agree 100% that it is an honest and peaceful gesture and certainly not confrontational. What i am saying is that i feel (and others that i've spoken to in conversation), is that it has gone on for too long now. The message has been sent out, and we have all received.
But where does it go from here? Do we have start to have a regular gesture spot before each game to protest a social injustice that has been committed somewhere?

The biggest message from black people to white people at the height of the unrest was essentially

"Don't just make some meaningless posts and symbols on facebook etc and then just forget about us again without changing anything. Do something, make change happen and don't just think about racism for a week to make yourself feel better."

How about you let the people affected decide when they feel it's time to stop and not decide for them because you're bored of it. So oxf*rd what.

And what exactly is the token gesture of taking the knee doing other than meaningless virtue signalling and symbolism? I fail to see how it breaks down or stops any perceived institutional racism or police brutality? If anything its created more partisan behaviour, side picking and marginalisation. I generally consider myself to be fairly liberal and completely pro-equality but I also now fall into a segment that is all that but doesn't support BLM and token pre-match knee taking, fist raising and vague US-led protests. I also found the timing of the protests to be abhorrent, which is probably where the majority of my personal dislike for the BLM movement comes from.

Can you be racist elsewhere? thick as mince.

[Jagermesiter1871]

The biggest message from black people to white people at the height of the unrest was essentially

"Don't just make some meaningless posts and symbols on facebook etc and then just forget about us again without changing anything. Do something, make change happen and don't just think about racism for a week to make yourself feel better."

How about you let the people affected decide when they feel it's time to stop and not decide for them because you're bored of it. So oxf*rd what.

And what exactly is the token gesture of taking the knee doing other than meaningless virtue signalling and symbolism? I fail to see how it breaks down or stops any perceived institutional racism or police brutality? If anything its created more partisan behaviour, side picking and marginalisation. I generally consider myself to be fairly liberal and completely pro-equality but I also now fall into a segment that is all that but doesn't support BLM and token pre-match knee taking, fist raising and vague US-led protests. I also found the timing of the protests to be abhorrent, which is probably where the majority of my personal dislike for the BLM movement comes from.

Can you be racist elsewhere? thick as mince.

Evidence A.

No you're racist.

[Jagermesiter1871]

The biggest message from black people to white people at the height of the unrest was essentially

"Don't just make some meaningless posts and symbols on facebook etc and then just forget about us again without changing anything. Do something, make change happen and don't just think about racism for a week to make yourself feel better."

How about you let the people affected decide when they feel it's time to stop and not decide for them because you're bored of it. So oxf*rd what.

And what exactly is the token gesture of taking the knee doing other than meaningless virtue signalling and symbolism? I fail to see how it breaks down or stops any perceived institutional racism or police brutality? If anything its created more partisan behaviour, side picking and marginalisation. I generally consider myself to be fairly liberal and completely pro-equality but I also now fall into a segment that is all that but doesn't support BLM and token pre-match knee taking, fist raising and vague US-led protests. I also found the timing of the protests to be abhorrent, which is probably where the majority of my personal dislike for the BLM movement comes from.

Can you be racist elsewhere? thick as mince.

Odd that when I search your post history this is what the above post apparently says:

I agree 100% that it is an honest and peaceful gesture and certainly not confrontational. What i am saying is that i feel (and others that i've spoken to in conversation), is that it has gone on for too long now. The message has been sent out, and we have all received. But where does it go from her...

Odd.

[From Despair To Where?]

I agree 100% that it is an honest and peaceful gesture and certainly not confrontational. What i am saying is that i feel (and others that i've spoken to in conversation), is that it has gone on for too long now. The message has been sent out, and we have all received.
But where does it go from here? Do we have start to have a regular gesture spot before each game to protest a social injustice that has been committed somewhere?

The biggest message from black people to white people at the height of the unrest was essentially

"Don't just make some meaningless posts and symbols on facebook etc and then just forget about us again without changing anything. Do something, make change happen and don't just think about racism for a week to make yourself feel better."

How about you let the people affected decide when they feel it's time to stop and not decide for them because you're bored of it. So oxf*rd what.

How about you let me make my own mind up? My opinion is my entitlement and none of your business.
And do you have to be abusive on a civilised debate? You lose any argument as soon as you become abusive.

No one's stopping you from making your mind up. Les Ferdinand made his mind up, explanned his standpoint and people accepted it. What he didnt do was publicly boo it and belittle the gesture whilst giving trite, ill inconceieved "its Marxism innit" justifications. Thats what I'm calling ignorant and disingenuous.

[Franchise FC]

Given that the time taken at the start of a game for ‘the knee’ is extremely short, why is anyone angsty enough to make it a problem

Centuries of oppression is not going to be overcome by a couple of weeks of raising the issue until some get bored of it

[From Despair To Where?]

Booing doesn't say "This is now virtue signalling and we need to move on to more concrete action to fight racism", booing says "I'm opposed to this".

[Snowflake Royal]

I agree 100% that it is an honest and peaceful gesture and certainly not confrontational. What i am saying is that i feel (and others that i've spoken to in conversation), is that it has gone on for too long now. The message has been sent out, and we have all received.
But where does it go from here? Do we have start to have a regular gesture spot before each game to protest a social injustice that has been committed somewhere?

The biggest message from black people to white people at the height of the unrest was essentially

"Don't just make some meaningless posts and symbols on facebook etc and then just forget about us again without changing anything. Do something, make change happen and don't just think about racism for a week to make yourself feel better."

How about you let the people affected decide when they feel it's time to stop and not decide for them because you're bored of it. So oxf*rd what.

How about you let me make my own mind up? My opinion is my entitlement and none of your business.
And do you have to be abusive on a civilised debate? You lose any argument as soon as you become abusive.

Post your opinion on a public discussion forum where you're saying something should happen and you make your opinion other people's business and fair game. If you don't want it commented on, keep it private.

The hypocrisy of you saying saying people should stop doing something you don't like and then complaining when someone challenges your view is impressive.

I wasn't abusive btw. And many would find your view more offensive than the single use of a swear word that's ce stored and not directed at anyone.

What people like you always fail to realise is that I am just as entitled to express my opinion that your opinion is a pile of casual racist thick as mince bullshit as you are to express it in the first place. That was a bit abusive btw. HTH.

Also, who was it who had a patronising pop at me out of no where for having a decent vocabulary and using it you inoffensively you double hypocrite old pcunt. That was pretty abusive. HTAH.

[Snowflake Royal]

I agree 100% that it is an honest and peaceful gesture and certainly not confrontational. What i am saying is that i feel (and others that i've spoken to in conversation), is that it has gone on for too long now. The message has been sent out, and we have all received.
But where does it go from here? Do we have start to have a regular gesture spot before each game to protest a social injustice that has been committed somewhere?

The biggest message from black people to white people at the height of the unrest was essentially

"Don't just make some meaningless posts and symbols on facebook etc and then just forget about us again without changing anything. Do something, make change happen and don't just think about racism for a week to make yourself feel better."

How about you let the people affected decide when they feel it's time to stop and not decide for them because you're bored of it. So oxf*rd what.

And what exactly is the token gesture of taking the knee doing other than meaningless virtue signalling and symbolism? I fail to see how it breaks down or stops any perceived institutional racism or police brutality? If anything its created more partisan behaviour, side picking and marginalisation. I generally consider myself to be fairly liberal and completely pro-equality but I also now fall into a segment that is all that but doesn't support BLM and token pre-match knee taking, fist raising and vague US-led protests. I also found the timing of the protests to be abhorrent, which is probably where the majority of my personal dislike for the BLM movement comes from.

Already explained well.

Keeping the issue in the public eye so it isn't just forgotten. Showing solidarity and empathy. Sending a message that the majority are against racism and the minority aren't welcome and should stay quiet or get out.

Virtue signaling a phrase used by the unpleasant without enpathy to criticise a minimum positive action taken by people with empathy.

[Nameless]

What exactly does taking the knee do? It's just virtue signalling.

The obvious - unhelpful - retort is that in that case you shouldn’t be so strangely enraged by it.

The more helpful response is that there no “just” about it. Virtue signalling, as you put it, is useful because it shows us people’s values. When someone takes the knee, it’s their way of saying “I am prepared to do the bare minimum to oppose racism”. It means that the nasty people know that football isn’t on their side and that they aren’t welcome. And to a lesser extent, it means that people who are wary of racism know that football supports them. It means standing with Paul Canovile and Jason Roberts and Anton Ferdinand and Ali Al-Habsi and Yakou Meite. Same with the rainbow laces signalling opposition to homophobia and support for the LGBT+ community. Sure it’s not going to change many minds, but it sets the tone, and it makes the boneheads a little less confident and a little less willing to open their mouths.

And, of course, the gesture doesn’t stop them from doing anything else.

For the record it doesn't enrage me at all. I'm fairly apathetic to it.

I’d be fascinated to see what lengths you would go to to argue a case you were actually interested in then.....

Whilst the lack of any kind of objection to Black power salutes is interesting the fact that people think spending a few seconds each game restating your support for your fellow players is a waste of time is depressing. The fact that someone thinks football has been free from ‘political’ influence since 1914 is equally mind blowing. I recall the National Front being very openly recruiting at football grounds in the 70’s and there’s is a prominent right wing organisation called the Football Lad’s Alliance that has been very active at many clubs in recent years. I’ve seen/heard casual racism by our fans at games. Seems like these are ok but when players make a stand in support of basic decency it is ‘tedious’ and ‘token’. What the players are doing is no more political than the minute’s silence on Remembrance Day and I mistrust themotives of those who claim it is.
If you don’t support it then maybe just arrive in your seat 9 seconds later.

In terms of
Clubspublicising what they are doing to promote equality I suspect we would be rated pretty highly given the really high proportion of players we have from BAME backgrounds and the number of senior members of the coaching staff from the same background. Doesn’t mean we can sit back and say ‘it’s not our problem’.

[Westwood52]

Quite rightly BLM is a very difficult subject.What it does achieve as an initiative is get it out there front and centre,which is what the Originators want us to think about.However they must have been aware that by its very phraseology it could well alienate the very sectors of the community they wish to educate.Whose obvious response is All Lives Matter and Policeman’s Lives Matter.
Racism is abhorrent.I know when I was discriminated against at school and work,because of where I came from in relation to my cohort in the 60 s I didn’t show it,but it still hurt.
I do think in this country that we have taken great steps towards racial tolerance and each generation that comes through improve the situation.You also have to now be very careful about your actions and attitudes both at work and in the community.Whether it is racism,ageism,sexism or victimisation and there is now thankfully legal redress.

[oldebiscuit]

The biggest message from black people to white people at the height of the unrest was essentially

"Don't just make some meaningless posts and symbols on facebook etc and then just forget about us again without changing anything. Do something, make change happen and don't just think about racism for a week to make yourself feel better."

How about you let the people affected decide when they feel it's time to stop and not decide for them because you're bored of it. So oxf*rd what.

How about you let me make my own mind up? My opinion is my entitlement and none of your business.
And do you have to be abusive on a civilised debate? You lose any argument as soon as you become abusive.

Post your opinion on a public discussion forum where you're saying something should happen and you make your opinion other people's business and fair game. If you don't want it commented on, keep it private.

The hypocrisy of you saying saying people should stop doing something you don't like and then complaining when someone challenges your view is impressive.

I wasn't abusive btw. And many would find your view more offensive than the single use of a swear word that's ce stored and not directed at anyone.

What people like you always fail to realise is that I am just as entitled to express my opinion that your opinion is a pile of casual racist thick as mince bullshit as you are to express it in the first place. That was a bit abusive btw. HTH.

Also, who was it who had a patronising pop at me out of no where for having a decent vocabulary and using it you inoffensively you double hypocrite old pcunt. That was pretty abusive. HTAH.

What a load of waffle with no content and average vocabulary. Less is more.

You need to grow up and accept that not everybody shares your opinion, and learn to try and not abuse those whose opinions differ from yours. Throwing names and insults is the weapon of spoilt brats.

And if you want to discuss hypocrisy, then ask your self how many Reading fans condemn racism but openly target and shout abuse at a red headed player? sing 'where's your caravan' or 'pikey' to a player with long black hair? And how many have sung 'Bobby Zamora the elephant man'? or any of the many disciminatory comments that are banded about

[tidus_mi2]

And if you want to discuss hypocrisy, then ask your self how many Reading fans condemn racism but openly target and shout abuse at a red headed player? sing 'where's your caravan' or 'pikey' to a player with long black hair? And how many have sung 'Bobby Zamora the elephant man'? or any of the many disciminatory comments that are banded about

What crowd are you hanging around with? I've never heard chants like these at all.

[oldebiscuit]

And if you want to discuss hypocrisy, then ask your self how many Reading fans condemn racism but openly target and shout abuse at a red headed player? sing 'where's your caravan' or 'pikey' to a player with long black hair? And how many have sung 'Bobby Zamora the elephant man'? or any of the many disciminatory comments that are banded about

What crowd are you hanging around with? I've never heard chants like these at all.

Really? I find that amazing. Perhaps i've been going too long. I was there when Andy Alleyne made his debut for us and can still remember the disturbing behaviour from our own fans that day that would be classed as a major incident today, but seemed acceptable then.

You don't have to hang with these people to hear it, i assure you.

[genome]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The phrase "virtue signalling" is the worst phrase in the English language. Meaningless reductive twaddle used in place of an actual counter-argument.

[Jagermesiter1871]

And if you want to discuss hypocrisy, then ask your self how many Reading fans condemn racism but openly target and shout abuse at a red headed player? sing 'where's your caravan' or 'pikey' to a player with long black hair? And how many have sung 'Bobby Zamora the elephant man'? or any of the many disciminatory comments that are banded about

What crowd are you hanging around with? I've never heard chants like these at all.

Really? I've heard all those chants in the East Stand.

[Jagermesiter1871]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The phrase "virtue signalling" is the worst phrase in the English language. Meaningless reductive twaddle used in place of an actual counter-argument.

Completely disagree - it's an unequivocal term used to encapsulate precisely the act of doing a very public act with only the express purpose to show how good a person you are. It's perfect for this scenario.

[Jagermesiter1871]

The obvious - unhelpful - retort is that in that case you shouldn’t be so strangely enraged by it.

The more helpful response is that there no “just” about it. Virtue signalling, as you put it, is useful because it shows us people’s values. When someone takes the knee, it’s their way of saying “I am prepared to do the bare minimum to oppose racism”. It means that the nasty people know that football isn’t on their side and that they aren’t welcome. And to a lesser extent, it means that people who are wary of racism know that football supports them. It means standing with Paul Canovile and Jason Roberts and Anton Ferdinand and Ali Al-Habsi and Yakou Meite. Same with the rainbow laces signalling opposition to homophobia and support for the LGBT+ community. Sure it’s not going to change many minds, but it sets the tone, and it makes the boneheads a little less confident and a little less willing to open their mouths.

And, of course, the gesture doesn’t stop them from doing anything else.

For the record it doesn't enrage me at all. I'm fairly apathetic to it.

I’d be fascinated to see what lengths you would go to to argue a case you were actually interested in then.....

Whilst the lack of any kind of objection to Black power salutes is interesting the fact that people think spending a few seconds each game restating your support for your fellow players is a waste of time is depressing. The fact that someone thinks football has been free from ‘political’ influence since 1914 is equally mind blowing. I recall the National Front being very openly recruiting at football grounds in the 70’s and there’s is a prominent right wing organisation called the Football Lad’s Alliance that has been very active at many clubs in recent years. I’ve seen/heard casual racism by our fans at games. Seems like these are ok but when players make a stand in support of basic decency it is ‘tedious’ and ‘token’. What the players are doing is no more political than the minute’s silence on Remembrance Day and I mistrust themotives of those who claim it is.
If you don’t support it then maybe just arrive in your seat 9 seconds later.

In terms of
Clubspublicising what they are doing to promote equality I suspect we would be rated pretty highly given the really high proportion of players we have from BAME backgrounds and the number of senior members of the coaching staff from the same background. Doesn’t mean we can sit back and say ‘it’s not our problem’.

O believe me I'm willing to waste hours debating topics I have only a passing interest in and will vehemently defend a position I haven't even half decided if I support.