Points Deduction Incoming!

[Nameless]

They would have to be prove that if Covid hadn't happened and revenues were normal during the period then they would not have entered admin....however considering the size of the bill they owe HMRC I would find that hard to believe.....time for the accountants to do their work...

Would they ?
Surely they will look at whether the rules cover the unusual circumstances. They could try and get a ruling that any punishment in these times is reasonable. They could look at whether the allowances made by the league (losses across 4 seasons rather than 3) are adequate.
Imwouldn’t Be trying to argue the specifics of Derby’s accounts, I’d be looking to get the rules declared to be invalid/ unreasonable at a broad level.

[Zip]

Why don’t the EFL forget about 2020/21 figures for all clubs?
Every club will have taken a big hit. Seems pointless including the figures given virtually no fans attended games.

[Snowflake Royal]

Why don’t the EFL forget about 2020/21 figures for all clubs?
Every club will have taken a big hit. Seems pointless including the figures given virtually no fans attended games.

The 4th year and average does seem poorly thought out and a perfect way to oxf*rd over clubs who had been in the shit and been turning it around, whilst bailing out clubs who had been OK and were heading the wrong way.

Surely much easier and fairer to just run the figures as they are and then make an adjustment for estimated lost revenue due to the pandemic.

[Jagermesiter1871]

Quite honestly unless a side goes into administration during the season then points deductions should happen during the close season, it affects the integrity of the league otherwise. If points are taken off at the start its a far more effective punishment.

I don't think it is though? Say we got -9 today, at least we would then know exactly what we had to do to overturn it.

As opposed to just arbitrarily deducting them at some random stage during the season with no consistency as to when? Hardly a level playing field.

[Snowflake Royal]

Quite honestly unless a side goes into administration during the season then points deductions should happen during the close season, it affects the integrity of the league otherwise. If points are taken off at the start its a far more effective punishment.

I don't think it is though? Say we got -9 today, at least we would then know exactly what we had to do to overturn it.

As opposed to just arbitrarily deducting them at some random stage during the season with no consistency as to when? Hardly a level playing field.

It's not arbitrary.

It's at the point the investigation completes and the punishment is decided, unless you're already going to be relegated, in which case it carries over.

[Hendo]

Quite honestly unless a side goes into administration during the season then points deductions should happen during the close season, it affects the integrity of the league otherwise. If points are taken off at the start its a far more effective punishment.

I don't think it is though? Say we got -9 today, at least we would then know exactly what we had to do to overturn it.

As opposed to just arbitrarily deducting them at some random stage during the season with no consistency as to when? Hardly a level playing field.

If it is a level playing field you're looking for, I don't think football is the game for you.

[Wycombe Royal]

They would have to be prove that if Covid hadn't happened and revenues were normal during the period then they would not have entered admin....however considering the size of the bill they owe HMRC I would find that hard to believe.....time for the accountants to do their work...

Would they ?
Surely they will look at whether the rules cover the unusual circumstances. They could try and get a ruling that any punishment in these times is reasonable. They could look at whether the allowances made by the league (losses across 4 seasons rather than 3) are adequate.
Imwouldn’t Be trying to argue the specifics of Derby’s accounts, I’d be looking to get the rules declared to be invalid/ unreasonable at a broad level.

Losses across seasons is irrelevant in this case. This is regarding the automatic 12 point deduction for entering administration. Derby would need to show that if Covid hadn't happened then they wouldn't have entered admin. If they can't do that then they have no case. Yes there may be rules around "special circumstances" but even in that case they would need to show that Covid lockdowns was the driving factor in them entering admin.

This rule has been in place for many years, it is not new and is something all clubs signed up to as a way of helping to deter clubs entering admin as an easy way out to clear debts (some businesses still do this and they then buy the company out of admin in a pre-pack arrangement).

[Mr Angry]

Losses across seasons is irrelevant in this case. This is regarding the automatic 12 point deduction for entering administration. Derby would need to show that if Covid hadn't happened then they wouldn't have entered admin. If they can't do that then they have no case. Yes there may be rules around "special circumstances" but even in that case they would need to show that Covid lockdowns was the driving factor in them entering admin.

This rule has been in place for many years, it is not new and is something all clubs signed up to as a way of helping to deter clubs entering admin as an easy way out to clear debts (some businesses still do this and they then buy the company out of admin in a pre-pack arrangement).

Leicester City did this in 2002; they failed to pay the builders of their stadium the last £5.5M, and even dicked the Ambulance Service out of £16K. But they were able to retain their players and got promoted back to the Premier League the following season. IIRC, it was this that led to to points deduction penalty coming into force.

[Wycombe Royal]

Losses across seasons is irrelevant in this case. This is regarding the automatic 12 point deduction for entering administration. Derby would need to show that if Covid hadn't happened then they wouldn't have entered admin. If they can't do that then they have no case. Yes there may be rules around "special circumstances" but even in that case they would need to show that Covid lockdowns was the driving factor in them entering admin.

This rule has been in place for many years, it is not new and is something all clubs signed up to as a way of helping to deter clubs entering admin as an easy way out to clear debts (some businesses still do this and they then buy the company out of admin in a pre-pack arrangement).

Leicester City did this in 2002; they failed to pay the builders of their stadium the last £5.5M, and even dicked the Ambulance Service out of £16K. But they were able to retain their players and got promoted back to the Premier League the following season. IIRC, it was this that led to to points deduction penalty coming into force.

We had a company do this where I work. They owed us £30k (not a huge sum), went into admin, paid creditors 1p in the £ and then the same owner who had bought the company back from the administrators in a pre-pack deal called us up to ask if we would continue to supply him. Needless to say we didn't, and neither did our 2 competitors (there aren't many players in our market).

[Jagermesiter1871]

I don't think it is though? Say we got -9 today, at least we would then know exactly what we had to do to overturn it.

As opposed to just arbitrarily deducting them at some random stage during the season with no consistency as to when? Hardly a level playing field.

It's not arbitrary.

It's at the point the investigation completes and the punishment is decided, unless you're already going to be relegated, in which case it carries over.

Right so fairly arbitrary; whenever they decide to conclude the investigation. Could take the points of this week. Or maybe 5 years time. Who knows. No deadlines as to when their investigations need to conclude.

[Jagermesiter1871]

I don't think it is though? Say we got -9 today, at least we would then know exactly what we had to do to overturn it.

As opposed to just arbitrarily deducting them at some random stage during the season with no consistency as to when? Hardly a level playing field.

If it is a level playing field you're looking for, I don't think football is the game for you.

Well the powers that be at least try to make out they're consistent in their punishment don't they?

[Snowflake Royal]

As opposed to just arbitrarily deducting them at some random stage during the season with no consistency as to when? Hardly a level playing field.

It's not arbitrary.

It's at the point the investigation completes and the punishment is decided, unless you're already going to be relegated, in which case it carries over.

Right so fairly arbitrary; whenever they decide to conclude the investigation. Could take the points of this week. Or maybe 5 years time. Who knows. No deadlines as to when their investigations need to conclude.

Exactly as arbitrary as a court case. Your penalty is applied once the investigation and trial is completed, if found guilty. Not ways on the next 1 Jan. Not when the crime was committed.

[Nameless]

They would have to be prove that if Covid hadn't happened and revenues were normal during the period then they would not have entered admin....however considering the size of the bill they owe HMRC I would find that hard to believe.....time for the accountants to do their work...

Would they ?
Surely they will look at whether the rules cover the unusual circumstances. They could try and get a ruling that any punishment in these times is reasonable. They could look at whether the allowances made by the league (losses across 4 seasons rather than 3) are adequate.
Imwouldn’t Be trying to argue the specifics of Derby’s accounts, I’d be looking to get the rules declared to be invalid/ unreasonable at a broad level.

Losses across seasons is irrelevant in this case. This is regarding the automatic 12 point deduction for entering administration. Derby would need to show that if Covid hadn't happened then they wouldn't have entered admin. If they can't do that then they have no case. Yes there may be rules around "special circumstances" but even in that case they would need to show that Covid lockdowns was the driving factor in them entering admin.

This rule has been in place for many years, it is not new and is something all clubs signed up to as a way of helping to deter clubs entering admin as an easy way out to clear debts (some businesses still do this and they then buy the company out of admin in a pre-pack arrangement).

But Derby ARE arguing that it was the special circumstances of the pandemic which led them to go into administration, and the rules shouldn't apply as a result, because the rules possibly don't have provision for these special circumstances. My point remains, because I don't think they have a hope in hell in arguing that all their debts are due to Covid. Their only hope must be that the rules don't take into account the unusual circumstances and therefore shouldn't apply to anyone. I don't think it's a very good case, but trying to find a legal loophole to wriggle through has to be the route to follow for them. I hope it fails !

[Elm Park Kid]

It's an odd argument as there is virtually no team in the Championship that was running at a profit even before covid. Technically any of them could have entered administration at any point if their owners had decided to do so (Reading could be put in administration tomorrow if the owners wanted). Derby went into administration because Mel Morris took the decision that the clubs losses were too high for him to continue supporting and that he wasn't going to be able to find a new buyer - that was a subjective decision, not something that can be proved by numbers.

So what is Derby's argument going to be? That with no covid the losses would have been low enough for Mel Morris to sustain? Again, that's a subjective point depending entire on his willingness to shoulder the debt.

[Jagermesiter1871]

It's not arbitrary.

It's at the point the investigation completes and the punishment is decided, unless you're already going to be relegated, in which case it carries over.

Right so fairly arbitrary; whenever they decide to conclude the investigation. Could take the points of this week. Or maybe 5 years time. Who knows. No deadlines as to when their investigations need to conclude.

Exactly as arbitrary as a court case. Your penalty is applied once the investigation and trial is completed, if found guilty. Not ways on the next 1 Jan. Not when the crime was committed.

Correct but we're not talking about individuals. We're talking about teams and competition for which dependent on when you get round to implementing points deductions has ramifications on other clubs who have not committed any offences; see Wycombe last year.
It seems odd and unfair that you could effectively cheat in 1 season, benefit from it whilst also punishing other teams who abided by the rules.

[Snowflake Royal]

Right so fairly arbitrary; whenever they decide to conclude the investigation. Could take the points of this week. Or maybe 5 years time. Who knows. No deadlines as to when their investigations need to conclude.

Exactly as arbitrary as a court case. Your penalty is applied once the investigation and trial is completed, if found guilty. Not ways on the next 1 Jan. Not when the crime was committed.

Correct but we're not talking about individuals. We're talking about teams and competition for which dependent on when you get round to implementing points deductions has ramifications on other clubs who have not committed any offences; see Wycombe last year.
It seems odd and unfair that you could effectively cheat in 1 season, benefit from it whilst also punishing other teams who abided by the rules.

Well, the only solution is prevent cheating by heavy regulation and control and all money and contracts going through independent forensically audited third parties.

[Jagermesiter1871]

Exactly as arbitrary as a court case. Your penalty is applied once the investigation and trial is completed, if found guilty. Not ways on the next 1 Jan. Not when the crime was committed.

Correct but we're not talking about individuals. We're talking about teams and competition for which dependent on when you get round to implementing points deductions has ramifications on other clubs who have not committed any offences; see Wycombe last year.
It seems odd and unfair that you could effectively cheat in 1 season, benefit from it whilst also punishing other teams who abided by the rules.

Well, the only solution is prevent cheating by heavy regulation and control and all money and contracts going through independent forensically audited third parties.

Agreed but with deadlines and statue of limitations.

[RoyalBlue]

It's not arbitrary.

It's at the point the investigation completes and the punishment is decided, unless you're already going to be relegated, in which case it carries over.

Right so fairly arbitrary; whenever they decide to conclude the investigation. Could take the points of this week. Or maybe 5 years time. Who knows. No deadlines as to when their investigations need to conclude.

Exactly as arbitrary as a court case. Your penalty is applied once the investigation and trial is completed, if found guilty. Not ways on the next 1 Jan. Not when the crime was committed.

However, if you've been remanded in custody whilst the legal process slowly grinds to conclusion, I believe that time is usually deducted from any sentence imposed. IMO being under the EFL's transfer restrictions and living in a climate of uncertainty for as long as we have, should be taken into account in a similar manner.

[From Despair To Where?]

Pretty sure Derby haven't run up a £26m tax bill just since last March so that would suggest they were having problems paying creditors long before Covid struck.

[Horsham Royal]

Agreed but with deadlines and statue of limitations.

Is that like the Statute of Liberty?
(I know it's just a typo, but made me chuckle.)