BFTG - Barnsley

[Snowflake Royal]

You know the job is simple if you have 30 minutes 3 camera angles and the ability to take stills at the exact moment.

Capture the same angle a couple of seconds later and it likely looks quite different.

TDB is ahead of his marker and the guy in the middle is stepping up.

[Nameless]

The only thing I'd say in their defence is that having been press ganged into 'running the line' for many years when my kids were playing, I found it incredibly hard. At times you pretty much need eyes pointing in two different directions (or more) when it comes to judging offsides. That having been said, the Dele-Bashiru one yesterday wasn't even a close call and he was still onside some time after Ejaria made contact with the ball.

I really hope like the rest of us officials have some sort of appraisal system where cockups like this are noted and they have to explain them? One or two cockups like this from the linesman (when it's pretty much his main job!) and you drop down a league. Surely this must happen?

The officials are constantly assessed. What on earth you think ‘explaining’ would mean is hard to work out. The answer is he flagged because in the split second he thought the player was offside. He was wrong but those judging it on the basis of a screen grab really aren’t understanding how running the line works.
Officials get things wrong, they always will. It would be ridiculous to expect them to get everything right. What we can expect is they make the best judgement they can, honestly and without bias.
I have run the line many times, hundreds. You are dealing with fractions of seconds, inches. You have all sorts of pressures and distractions and everyone knows better than you even when they don’t know the rules and are in no position to make judgements.
I wonder why ‘experts’ Don’t call for players to have to explain every misplaced pass, missed tackle and suggest that after 2 bad passes players get sent to a lower division team.

[Hound]

yep and going as TDB was going full speed in one direction, and the defender pushing up in the other, its a lot tighter than the freeze frame made it look

In saying that was surprised when it was given, and also thought the Puscas one was a surprising call as well. Anyone see that one again?

[Millsy]

I really hope like the rest of us officials have some sort of appraisal system where cockups like this are noted and they have to explain them? One or two cockups like this from the linesman (when it's pretty much his main job!) and you drop down a league. Surely this must happen?

The officials are constantly assessed. What on earth you think ‘explaining’ would mean is hard to work out. The answer is he flagged because in the split second he thought the player was offside. He was wrong but those judging it on the basis of a screen grab really aren’t understanding how running the line works.
Officials get things wrong, they always will. It would be ridiculous to expect them to get everything right. What we can expect is they make the best judgement they can, honestly and without bias.
I have run the line many times, hundreds. You are dealing with fractions of seconds, inches. You have all sorts of pressures and distractions and everyone knows better than you even when they don’t know the rules and are in no position to make judgements.
I wonder why ‘experts’ Don’t call for players to have to explain every misplaced pass, missed tackle and suggest that after 2 bad passes players get sent to a lower division team.

Explain is just the terminology I am using. When I assess staff I bring up the issues and let them 'explain'. It's helpful to know their take on it - perhaps there are mitigations employers are unaware of and we can help. Perhaps this guy had an awful migraine before the match? Perhaps he didn't have the right contact lenses in? Who knows. Likewise when I'm appraised I have the opportunity to explain.

Thanks for answering the Q, yes they are appraised and assessed constantly. That's great. Well... I'm assuming by assessed you mean apprasied too, not just have to pass regular exams but have to account for things they've done good and bad.

Of course people make errors and when it's an inch or two, that's just background noise. Here it's clearly woefully wrong though. One or two of these in a season, fair enough, nobody's perfect. But I was interested to know if they get appraised on how many of these are happening i..e is this noted down and if there are quite a few of these that are quite badly out, what happens?

Players? They are absolutely assessed each and every game by every fan in the ground, the media, their managers and coaches and most of all themselves probably. That's the fundamental basis upon which they are played or not played/ moved up and down divisions etc! It's all about performance, moreso than probably any other profession. I was wondering to what extent this applies to officials also or do they just get some badge and a happy career in whatever league it is based on some exam, even if they're making regular significant cockups.

[JedMaxwell]

Good win, we continue to do well in difficult circumstances with injuries and uncertainties over the points deduction etc..

On a slightly different note, is there not somewhere else people can go to have weird arguments about where they live and other personal dreck?

[Mr Angry]

Speaking of beat elevens, I read a good article on how little some of the perceived classic IXs actually played with each other.
https://theanalyst.com/eu/2021/10/premi ... -the-rare/
The United treble winning "best XI" only started one Prem game. And amazingly this team NEVER started a Prem game.
Alisson

TAA
Van Dijk
Matip
Robertson

Fabinho
Henderson
Wiji

Salah
Firmino
Mane


Be interested to see how many games the 106 IX started in that season. Expect it's still a good amount, but nowhere near as many as we all remember.

Not sure about 2005/06, but I know that we never lined up Hahnemann-Murty-Sonko-Ingimarsson-Shorey-Little-Harper-Sidwell-Convey-Kitson-Doyle in the Premier League. Little missed the opening game and after that we didn’t get him, Kitson, Sonko and Convey all fit until after Sidwell left.

Just checked - they played together six times. The last time was the match against Derby where we were confirmed as Champions.

The same team but with Lita in for Kitson was probably our most common starting XI that season.

It was a pretty consistent first 11:

Sonko 46
Ingarmarsson 46
Convey 45
Hahnemann 45
Harper 44 (+1 subs appearance)
Doyle 41 (+ 4 subs appearances)
Murty 40
Shorey 40
Little 34 (+ 1 sub appearance)
Sidwell 29 (+ 4 sub appearances)
Kitson 27 (+ 7 sub appearances)

So out of a possible 506 starts, those 11 accounted for 437 of them - some 86.4% of the starting line up places for the whole season.

[Nameless]

I really hope like the rest of us officials have some sort of appraisal system where cockups like this are noted and they have to explain them? One or two cockups like this from the linesman (when it's pretty much his main job!) and you drop down a league. Surely this must happen?

The officials are constantly assessed. What on earth you think ‘explaining’ would mean is hard to work out. The answer is he flagged because in the split second he thought the player was offside. He was wrong but those judging it on the basis of a screen grab really aren’t understanding how running the line works.
Officials get things wrong, they always will. It would be ridiculous to expect them to get everything right. What we can expect is they make the best judgement they can, honestly and without bias.
I have run the line many times, hundreds. You are dealing with fractions of seconds, inches. You have all sorts of pressures and distractions and everyone knows better than you even when they don’t know the rules and are in no position to make judgements.
I wonder why ‘experts’ Don’t call for players to have to explain every misplaced pass, missed tackle and suggest that after 2 bad passes players get sent to a lower division team.

Explain is just the terminology I am using. When I assess staff I bring up the issues and let them 'explain'. It's helpful to know their take on it - perhaps there are mitigations employers are unaware of and we can help. Perhaps this guy had an awful migraine before the match? Perhaps he didn't have the right contact lenses in? Who knows. Likewise when I'm appraised I have the opportunity to explain.

Thanks for answering the Q, yes they are appraised and assessed constantly. That's great. Well... I'm assuming by assessed you mean apprasied too, not just have to pass regular exams but have to account for things they've done good and bad.

Of course people make errors and when it's an inch or two, that's just background noise. Here it's clearly woefully wrong though. One or two of these in a season, fair enough, nobody's perfect. But I was interested to know if they get appraised on how many of these are happening i..e is this noted down and if there are quite a few of these that are quite badly out, what happens?

Players? They are absolutely assessed each and every game by every fan in the ground, the media, their managers and coaches and most of all themselves probably. That's the fundamental basis upon which they are played or not played/ moved up and down divisions etc! It's all about performance, moreso than probably any other profession. I was wondering to what extent this applies to officials also or do they just get some badge and a happy career in whatever league it is based on some exam, even if they're making regular significant cockups.

So officials are assessed by exactly the same people you mention PLUS they have a formal ongoing process. I’m not up to date with the current set up but firstof all most officials will self review, they will talk to each other informally and there used to be an assessor at every game who would be providing detailed feedback. They get promoted and relegated on merit, you hear of officials being put down divisions based on poor performances but of course if you do that you have to replace them with someone who by definition was not considered ready to be at a higher level.
I would imagine there is a huge problem in actually getting enough officials. There is a chronic shortage of referees at local level and the only way you become a PL referee is by starting out on the local parks. Not enough people want to go and be abused by parents, players, managers, men walking dogs for several years as they work their way up through the league’s. The guys who reach the top have years of experience and earned multiple promotions on merit.
It’s always hugely ironic when the likes of Warnock attack officials because they ‘don’t understand the game’. They will have been involved in hundreds of games, and of course by the same token Warnock doesn’t understand refereeing because although he did take the exam he’s not actually put in the years to know what it is like to be making hundreds of decisions every game, involving split seconds, multiple options, all sorts of pressures etc.
I hate it when officials make bad decisions (in my opinion). However I have sat with highly experienced referee trainers who have taken me through incidents where I disagreed with decisions and been shown why calls were made and why, in the huge majority of cases, they were correct.
Referees sadly get the rough end of the stick from pundits which then rubs off on fans. It’s easy on theTV to say ‘for me that’s not a red card’ without being to articulate why, under the laws it isn’t. Likewise I’ve heard pundits say ‘by letter of the law........but for me it was never a foul’..

[Millsy]

The officials are constantly assessed. What on earth you think ‘explaining’ would mean is hard to work out. The answer is he flagged because in the split second he thought the player was offside. He was wrong but those judging it on the basis of a screen grab really aren’t understanding how running the line works.
Officials get things wrong, they always will. It would be ridiculous to expect them to get everything right. What we can expect is they make the best judgement they can, honestly and without bias.
I have run the line many times, hundreds. You are dealing with fractions of seconds, inches. You have all sorts of pressures and distractions and everyone knows better than you even when they don’t know the rules and are in no position to make judgements.
I wonder why ‘experts’ Don’t call for players to have to explain every misplaced pass, missed tackle and suggest that after 2 bad passes players get sent to a lower division team.

Explain is just the terminology I am using. When I assess staff I bring up the issues and let them 'explain'. It's helpful to know their take on it - perhaps there are mitigations employers are unaware of and we can help. Perhaps this guy had an awful migraine before the match? Perhaps he didn't have the right contact lenses in? Who knows. Likewise when I'm appraised I have the opportunity to explain.

Thanks for answering the Q, yes they are appraised and assessed constantly. That's great. Well... I'm assuming by assessed you mean apprasied too, not just have to pass regular exams but have to account for things they've done good and bad.

Of course people make errors and when it's an inch or two, that's just background noise. Here it's clearly woefully wrong though. One or two of these in a season, fair enough, nobody's perfect. But I was interested to know if they get appraised on how many of these are happening i..e is this noted down and if there are quite a few of these that are quite badly out, what happens?

Players? They are absolutely assessed each and every game by every fan in the ground, the media, their managers and coaches and most of all themselves probably. That's the fundamental basis upon which they are played or not played/ moved up and down divisions etc! It's all about performance, moreso than probably any other profession. I was wondering to what extent this applies to officials also or do they just get some badge and a happy career in whatever league it is based on some exam, even if they're making regular significant cockups.

So officials are assessed by exactly the same people you mention PLUS they have a formal ongoing process. I’m not up to date with the current set up but firstof all most officials will self review, they will talk to each other informally and there used to be an assessor at every game who would be providing detailed feedback. They get promoted and relegated on merit, you hear of officials being put down divisions based on poor performances but of course if you do that you have to replace them with someone who by definition was not considered ready to be at a higher level.
I would imagine there is a huge problem in actually getting enough officials. There is a chronic shortage of referees at local level and the only way you become a PL referee is by starting out on the local parks. Not enough people want to go and be abused by parents, players, managers, men walking dogs for several years as they work their way up through the league’s. The guys who reach the top have years of experience and earned multiple promotions on merit.
It’s always hugely ironic when the likes of Warnock attack officials because they ‘don’t understand the game’. They will have been involved in hundreds of games, and of course by the same token Warnock doesn’t understand refereeing because although he did take the exam he’s not actually put in the years to know what it is like to be making hundreds of decisions every game, involving split seconds, multiple options, all sorts of pressures etc.
I hate it when officials make bad decisions (in my opinion). However I have sat with highly experienced referee trainers who have taken me through incidents where I disagreed with decisions and been shown why calls were made and why, in the huge majority of cases, they were correct.
Referees sadly get the rough end of the stick from pundits which then rubs off on fans. It’s easy on theTV to say ‘for me that’s not a red card’ without being to articulate why, under the laws it isn’t. Likewise I’ve heard pundits say ‘by letter of the law........but for me it was never a foul’..

Top post, thanks.

Yeah absolutely I'd hate to have any match officiating job. With the speed and new rules of the modern game I'm surprised they get it right as often as they do. Add to that the abuse the poor folk get and it's just crazy. True about Colin, doing an exam makes him better than me, as does being an ex player and current manager etc, but without actual match experience it means nothing. It's just avery difficult thing to do and I reckon however well trained I was I'd make monumental cockups several times a game.

Which is why I'm so keen on tech-assisted refereeing, implemented better than it is now, because it's just too much for flawed humans to get right all the time in a split second. Like rugby, tennis, cricket, PL footy etc... Until then we're going to have these humans trying the best they can. Sometimes it works against us. Sometimes we get phantom goals like at Watford. It's comforting to me to know they do have regular assessment though.

A further note - I'd go so far as to say ANY sort of dissent, any shake of the head, ironic smile, getting too close, arguing etc etc and that should be an instant card. It's disgusting how refs get zero respect. That's another thing I love about rugby (even though it's a shit game compared to footy), they respect refs. When we see pros respecting refs whether they're right or wrong, the culture will seep down to lower levels hopefully. Until then, it seems perfectly fine for angry players and their dads to abuse these poor guys.

[paultheroyal]

I really hope like the rest of us officials have some sort of appraisal system where cockups like this are noted and they have to explain them? One or two cockups like this from the linesman (when it's pretty much his main job!) and you drop down a league. Surely this must happen?

The officials are constantly assessed. What on earth you think ‘explaining’ would mean is hard to work out. The answer is he flagged because in the split second he thought the player was offside. He was wrong but those judging it on the basis of a screen grab really aren’t understanding how running the line works.
Officials get things wrong, they always will. It would be ridiculous to expect them to get everything right. What we can expect is they make the best judgement they can, honestly and without bias.
I have run the line many times, hundreds. You are dealing with fractions of seconds, inches. You have all sorts of pressures and distractions and everyone knows better than you even when they don’t know the rules and are in no position to make judgements.
I wonder why ‘experts’ Don’t call for players to have to explain every misplaced pass, missed tackle and suggest that after 2 bad passes players get sent to a lower division team.

Explain is just the terminology I am using. When I assess staff I bring up the issues and let them 'explain'. It's helpful to know their take on it - perhaps there are mitigations employers are unaware of and we can help. Perhaps this guy had an awful migraine before the match? Perhaps he didn't have the right contact lenses in? Who knows. Likewise when I'm appraised I have the opportunity to explain.

Thanks for answering the Q, yes they are appraised and assessed constantly. That's great. Well... I'm assuming by assessed you mean apprasied too, not just have to pass regular exams but have to account for things they've done good and bad.

Of course people make errors and when it's an inch or two, that's just background noise. Here it's clearly woefully wrong though. One or two of these in a season, fair enough, nobody's perfect. But I was interested to know if they get appraised on how many of these are happening i..e is this noted down and if there are quite a few of these that are quite badly out, what happens?

Players? They are absolutely assessed each and every game by every fan in the ground, the media, their managers and coaches and most of all themselves probably. That's the fundamental basis upon which they are played or not played/ moved up and down divisions etc! It's all about performance, moreso than probably any other profession. I was wondering to what extent this applies to officials also or do they just get some badge and a happy career in whatever league it is based on some exam, even if they're making regular significant cockups.

Millsy, i might of come down harder on your post but i see that you have acknowledged points further down which is great. But, seriously, that offiside you talk about, yes still frame is on, but you are talking about giving a decision right or wrong in about a 0.1 second window. Official needs to be in line, needs to be looking at correct angle whilst running and the mind cant compute that quick. Use of VAR worked brilliantly yesterday for Kane's goal. 2 seasons ago that would be ruled offside and no one would moan. Refereeing standards have not changed, if anything they have got better due to fitness etc but technology and being scrutinised has.

I say quality has improved, but it will deteriorate again. There is a real shortage, critical shortage of referee's coming through and this will impact on higher up leagues in a couple of years time. Abuse at local grassroots level is just abysmal. Even "semi pro" is toxic and last weekends footage at the Bristol Manor Farm game is now a game by game occurrence. It will only get worse.

[paultheroyal]

I am in favour of the 10 yard dissent rule. I reckon that might happen. Show dissent and move ball forward 10 yards or into opponents half if you are defending.

[RoyalBlue]

You know the job is simple if you have 30 minutes 3 camera angles and the ability to take stills at the exact moment.

Capture the same angle a couple of seconds later and it likely looks quite different.

TDB is ahead of his marker and the guy in the middle is stepping up.

It matters not that the guy in the middle is stepping up. The stills from Quest quite clearly capture the moment the ball leaves Ejaria's foot. At that moment, even allowing for camera angles, he is very clearly a lot closer to their goal than Dele-Bashiru; his rear foot appears in or very close to the next mower stripe, whereas Dele-Bashiru is much further away from that stripe. Personally I don't think this particular incident was one of the 'fine margins/split seconds' for which the official could be excused.

[bcubed]

I am in favour of the 10 yard dissent rule. I reckon that might happen. Show dissent and move ball forward 10 yards or into opponents half if you are defending.

Always seemed a blindingly obvious rule to bring in to me but didn't they try this years ago? Can't remember in what league. Maybe in America?

[paultheroyal]

You know the job is simple if you have 30 minutes 3 camera angles and the ability to take stills at the exact moment.

Capture the same angle a couple of seconds later and it likely looks quite different.

TDB is ahead of his marker and the guy in the middle is stepping up.

It matters not that the guy in the middle is stepping up. The stills from Quest quite clearly capture the moment the ball leaves Ejaria's foot. At that moment, even allowing for camera angles, he is very clearly a lot closer to their goal than Dele-Bashiru; his rear foot appears in or very close to the next mower stripe whereas Dele-Bashiru is much further away from that stripe.

it really is not that simple...

[Nameless]

I am in favour of the 10 yard dissent rule. I reckon that might happen. Show dissent and move ball forward 10 yards or into opponents half if you are defending.

Always seemed a blindingly obvious rule to bring in to me but didn't they try this years ago? Can't remember in what league. Maybe in America?

It was trialled in one of our cup competitions I think, but hardly used.
I do think refs should have more weapons to deal with it, but it’s really simple to stop. Managers and players just decide not to hassle the officials or spend half their time cheating ! I know that football just doesn’t Have a culture of honesty and FairPlay so 5ose who can change things just won’t even consider it is something they could do.

[RoyalBlue]

You know the job is simple if you have 30 minutes 3 camera angles and the ability to take stills at the exact moment.

Capture the same angle a couple of seconds later and it likely looks quite different.

TDB is ahead of his marker and the guy in the middle is stepping up.

It matters not that the guy in the middle is stepping up. The stills from Quest quite clearly capture the moment the ball leaves Ejaria's foot. At that moment, even allowing for camera angles, he is very clearly a lot closer to their goal than Dele-Bashiru; his rear foot appears in or very close to the next mower stripe whereas Dele-Bashiru is much further away from that stripe.

it really is not that simple...

I agree, often it is not. As I've mentioned previously, I found running the line incredibly difficult. However, I don't think this was one of the borderline/very difficult cases. For whatever reason, I think the official got this particular one wrong when he shouldn't have done. And yes, it cost us a goal like when our players miss a very clear cut chance when they shouldn't have done. Fans moan about that (particularly if it's Puscas! ) and likewise we are grumbling about this mistake. Fortunately, as it turned out, it didn't deprive us of any points.

[Hound]

On a slightly different note, is there not somewhere else people can go to have weird arguments about where they live and other personal dreck?

Yep AE on this same site

[Nameless]

It matters not that the guy in the middle is stepping up. The stills from Quest quite clearly capture the moment the ball leaves Ejaria's foot. At that moment, even allowing for camera angles, he is very clearly a lot closer to their goal than Dele-Bashiru; his rear foot appears in or very close to the next mower stripe whereas Dele-Bashiru is much further away from that stripe.

it really is not that simple...

I agree, often it is not. As I've mentioned previously, I found running the line incredibly difficult. However, I don't think this was one of the borderline/very difficult cases. For whatever reason, I think the official got this particular one wrong when he shouldn't have done. And yes, it cost us a goal like when our players miss a very clear cut chance when they shouldn't have done. Fans moan about that (particularly if it's Puscas! ) and likewise we are grumbling about this mistake. Fortunately, as it turned out, it didn't deprive us of any points.

It’s definitely an error, but it is also very tight. The still is extremely misleading. One leg movement by each player changes everything. The pass is hit from probably the worst possible place forth Lino to accurately judge the moment of impact.
As I’ve said earlier we place unrealistic expectations on our officials. Football is very different to most other sports in the way it isn’t officiated (it’s based mostly on opinion, not fact) but I do think technology could help a bit with some of the factual elements (has worked well with goal line decisions. Not too sure how you would automate offside decisions, would not be simple.

[Snowflake Royal]

You know the job is simple if you have 30 minutes 3 camera angles and the ability to take stills at the exact moment.

Capture the same angle a couple of seconds later and it likely looks quite different.

TDB is ahead of his marker and the guy in the middle is stepping up.

It matters not that the guy in the middle is stepping up. The stills from Quest quite clearly capture the moment the ball leaves Ejaria's foot. At that moment, even allowing for camera angles, he is very clearly a lot closer to their goal than Dele-Bashiru; his rear foot appears in or very close to the next mower stripe, whereas Dele-Bashiru is much further away from that stripe. Personally I don't think this particular incident was one of the 'fine margins/split seconds' for which the official could be excused.

I never said he was offside. I said it's not an easy call to make for a lino in real time.

[Snowflake Royal]

I am in favour of the 10 yard dissent rule. I reckon that might happen. Show dissent and move ball forward 10 yards or into opponents half if you are defending.

Always seemed a blindingly obvious rule to bring in to me but didn't they try this years ago? Can't remember in what league. Maybe in America?

Prefer a dissent sinbin

[NathStPaul]

I am in favour of the 10 yard dissent rule. I reckon that might happen. Show dissent and move ball forward 10 yards or into opponents half if you are defending.

Always seemed a blindingly obvious rule to bring in to me but didn't they try this years ago? Can't remember in what league. Maybe in America?

Prefer a dissent sinbin

Trouble with that is that different refs have different levels of tolorance, it would be really hard to keep it consistent. I play grassroots and have encountered referees who impliment the sin bin rule and some who laugh off players protestations and get on with the game, it just doesn't really work at all in my experience.