by Snowflake Royal » 18 Oct 2021 09:25
by Nameless » 18 Oct 2021 09:34
MillsyBigtimmehRoyalBlue
The only thing I'd say in their defence is that having been press ganged into 'running the line' for many years when my kids were playing, I found it incredibly hard. At times you pretty much need eyes pointing in two different directions (or more) when it comes to judging offsides. That having been said, the Dele-Bashiru one yesterday wasn't even a close call and he was still onside some time after Ejaria made contact with the ball.
I really hope like the rest of us officials have some sort of appraisal system where cockups like this are noted and they have to explain them? One or two cockups like this from the linesman (when it's pretty much his main job!) and you drop down a league. Surely this must happen?
by Hound » 18 Oct 2021 09:35
by Millsy » 18 Oct 2021 09:55
NamelessMillsyBigtimmeh
I really hope like the rest of us officials have some sort of appraisal system where cockups like this are noted and they have to explain them? One or two cockups like this from the linesman (when it's pretty much his main job!) and you drop down a league. Surely this must happen?
The officials are constantly assessed. What on earth you think ‘explaining’ would mean is hard to work out. The answer is he flagged because in the split second he thought the player was offside. He was wrong but those judging it on the basis of a screen grab really aren’t understanding how running the line works.
Officials get things wrong, they always will. It would be ridiculous to expect them to get everything right. What we can expect is they make the best judgement they can, honestly and without bias.
I have run the line many times, hundreds. You are dealing with fractions of seconds, inches. You have all sorts of pressures and distractions and everyone knows better than you even when they don’t know the rules and are in no position to make judgements.
I wonder why ‘experts’ Don’t call for players to have to explain every misplaced pass, missed tackle and suggest that after 2 bad passes players get sent to a lower division team.
by JedMaxwell » 18 Oct 2021 10:03
by Mr Angry » 18 Oct 2021 10:07
SCIAGSCIAGPepe the Horseman Speaking of beat elevens, I read a good article on how little some of the perceived classic IXs actually played with each other.
https://theanalyst.com/eu/2021/10/premi ... -the-rare/
The United treble winning "best XI" only started one Prem game. And amazingly this team NEVER started a Prem game.
Alisson
TAA
Van Dijk
Matip
Robertson
Fabinho
Henderson
Wiji
Salah
Firmino
Mane
Be interested to see how many games the 106 IX started in that season. Expect it's still a good amount, but nowhere near as many as we all remember.
Not sure about 2005/06, but I know that we never lined up Hahnemann-Murty-Sonko-Ingimarsson-Shorey-Little-Harper-Sidwell-Convey-Kitson-Doyle in the Premier League. Little missed the opening game and after that we didn’t get him, Kitson, Sonko and Convey all fit until after Sidwell left.
Just checked - they played together six times. The last time was the match against Derby where we were confirmed as Champions.
The same team but with Lita in for Kitson was probably our most common starting XI that season.
by Nameless » 18 Oct 2021 10:21
MillsyNamelessMillsy
I really hope like the rest of us officials have some sort of appraisal system where cockups like this are noted and they have to explain them? One or two cockups like this from the linesman (when it's pretty much his main job!) and you drop down a league. Surely this must happen?
The officials are constantly assessed. What on earth you think ‘explaining’ would mean is hard to work out. The answer is he flagged because in the split second he thought the player was offside. He was wrong but those judging it on the basis of a screen grab really aren’t understanding how running the line works.
Officials get things wrong, they always will. It would be ridiculous to expect them to get everything right. What we can expect is they make the best judgement they can, honestly and without bias.
I have run the line many times, hundreds. You are dealing with fractions of seconds, inches. You have all sorts of pressures and distractions and everyone knows better than you even when they don’t know the rules and are in no position to make judgements.
I wonder why ‘experts’ Don’t call for players to have to explain every misplaced pass, missed tackle and suggest that after 2 bad passes players get sent to a lower division team.
Explain is just the terminology I am using. When I assess staff I bring up the issues and let them 'explain'. It's helpful to know their take on it - perhaps there are mitigations employers are unaware of and we can help. Perhaps this guy had an awful migraine before the match? Perhaps he didn't have the right contact lenses in? Who knows. Likewise when I'm appraised I have the opportunity to explain.
Thanks for answering the Q, yes they are appraised and assessed constantly. That's great. Well... I'm assuming by assessed you mean apprasied too, not just have to pass regular exams but have to account for things they've done good and bad.
Of course people make errors and when it's an inch or two, that's just background noise. Here it's clearly woefully wrong though. One or two of these in a season, fair enough, nobody's perfect. But I was interested to know if they get appraised on how many of these are happening i..e is this noted down and if there are quite a few of these that are quite badly out, what happens?
Players? They are absolutely assessed each and every game by every fan in the ground, the media, their managers and coaches and most of all themselves probably. That's the fundamental basis upon which they are played or not played/ moved up and down divisions etc! It's all about performance, moreso than probably any other profession. I was wondering to what extent this applies to officials also or do they just get some badge and a happy career in whatever league it is based on some exam, even if they're making regular significant cockups.
by Millsy » 18 Oct 2021 10:44
NamelessMillsyNameless
The officials are constantly assessed. What on earth you think ‘explaining’ would mean is hard to work out. The answer is he flagged because in the split second he thought the player was offside. He was wrong but those judging it on the basis of a screen grab really aren’t understanding how running the line works.
Officials get things wrong, they always will. It would be ridiculous to expect them to get everything right. What we can expect is they make the best judgement they can, honestly and without bias.
I have run the line many times, hundreds. You are dealing with fractions of seconds, inches. You have all sorts of pressures and distractions and everyone knows better than you even when they don’t know the rules and are in no position to make judgements.
I wonder why ‘experts’ Don’t call for players to have to explain every misplaced pass, missed tackle and suggest that after 2 bad passes players get sent to a lower division team.
Explain is just the terminology I am using. When I assess staff I bring up the issues and let them 'explain'. It's helpful to know their take on it - perhaps there are mitigations employers are unaware of and we can help. Perhaps this guy had an awful migraine before the match? Perhaps he didn't have the right contact lenses in? Who knows. Likewise when I'm appraised I have the opportunity to explain.
Thanks for answering the Q, yes they are appraised and assessed constantly. That's great. Well... I'm assuming by assessed you mean apprasied too, not just have to pass regular exams but have to account for things they've done good and bad.
Of course people make errors and when it's an inch or two, that's just background noise. Here it's clearly woefully wrong though. One or two of these in a season, fair enough, nobody's perfect. But I was interested to know if they get appraised on how many of these are happening i..e is this noted down and if there are quite a few of these that are quite badly out, what happens?
Players? They are absolutely assessed each and every game by every fan in the ground, the media, their managers and coaches and most of all themselves probably. That's the fundamental basis upon which they are played or not played/ moved up and down divisions etc! It's all about performance, moreso than probably any other profession. I was wondering to what extent this applies to officials also or do they just get some badge and a happy career in whatever league it is based on some exam, even if they're making regular significant cockups.
So officials are assessed by exactly the same people you mention PLUS they have a formal ongoing process. I’m not up to date with the current set up but firstof all most officials will self review, they will talk to each other informally and there used to be an assessor at every game who would be providing detailed feedback. They get promoted and relegated on merit, you hear of officials being put down divisions based on poor performances but of course if you do that you have to replace them with someone who by definition was not considered ready to be at a higher level.
I would imagine there is a huge problem in actually getting enough officials. There is a chronic shortage of referees at local level and the only way you become a PL referee is by starting out on the local parks. Not enough people want to go and be abused by parents, players, managers, men walking dogs for several years as they work their way up through the league’s. The guys who reach the top have years of experience and earned multiple promotions on merit.
It’s always hugely ironic when the likes of Warnock attack officials because they ‘don’t understand the game’. They will have been involved in hundreds of games, and of course by the same token Warnock doesn’t understand refereeing because although he did take the exam he’s not actually put in the years to know what it is like to be making hundreds of decisions every game, involving split seconds, multiple options, all sorts of pressures etc.
I hate it when officials make bad decisions (in my opinion). However I have sat with highly experienced referee trainers who have taken me through incidents where I disagreed with decisions and been shown why calls were made and why, in the huge majority of cases, they were correct.
Referees sadly get the rough end of the stick from pundits which then rubs off on fans. It’s easy on theTV to say ‘for me that’s not a red card’ without being to articulate why, under the laws it isn’t. Likewise I’ve heard pundits say ‘by letter of the law........but for me it was never a foul’..
by paultheroyal » 18 Oct 2021 10:53
MillsyNamelessMillsy
I really hope like the rest of us officials have some sort of appraisal system where cockups like this are noted and they have to explain them? One or two cockups like this from the linesman (when it's pretty much his main job!) and you drop down a league. Surely this must happen?
The officials are constantly assessed. What on earth you think ‘explaining’ would mean is hard to work out. The answer is he flagged because in the split second he thought the player was offside. He was wrong but those judging it on the basis of a screen grab really aren’t understanding how running the line works.
Officials get things wrong, they always will. It would be ridiculous to expect them to get everything right. What we can expect is they make the best judgement they can, honestly and without bias.
I have run the line many times, hundreds. You are dealing with fractions of seconds, inches. You have all sorts of pressures and distractions and everyone knows better than you even when they don’t know the rules and are in no position to make judgements.
I wonder why ‘experts’ Don’t call for players to have to explain every misplaced pass, missed tackle and suggest that after 2 bad passes players get sent to a lower division team.
Explain is just the terminology I am using. When I assess staff I bring up the issues and let them 'explain'. It's helpful to know their take on it - perhaps there are mitigations employers are unaware of and we can help. Perhaps this guy had an awful migraine before the match? Perhaps he didn't have the right contact lenses in? Who knows. Likewise when I'm appraised I have the opportunity to explain.
Thanks for answering the Q, yes they are appraised and assessed constantly. That's great. Well... I'm assuming by assessed you mean apprasied too, not just have to pass regular exams but have to account for things they've done good and bad.
Of course people make errors and when it's an inch or two, that's just background noise. Here it's clearly woefully wrong though. One or two of these in a season, fair enough, nobody's perfect. But I was interested to know if they get appraised on how many of these are happening i..e is this noted down and if there are quite a few of these that are quite badly out, what happens?
Players? They are absolutely assessed each and every game by every fan in the ground, the media, their managers and coaches and most of all themselves probably. That's the fundamental basis upon which they are played or not played/ moved up and down divisions etc! It's all about performance, moreso than probably any other profession. I was wondering to what extent this applies to officials also or do they just get some badge and a happy career in whatever league it is based on some exam, even if they're making regular significant cockups.
by paultheroyal » 18 Oct 2021 10:55
by RoyalBlue » 18 Oct 2021 11:08
Snowflake Royal You know the job is simple if you have 30 minutes 3 camera angles and the ability to take stills at the exact moment.
Capture the same angle a couple of seconds later and it likely looks quite different.
TDB is ahead of his marker and the guy in the middle is stepping up.
by bcubed » 18 Oct 2021 11:09
paultheroyal I am in favour of the 10 yard dissent rule. I reckon that might happen. Show dissent and move ball forward 10 yards or into opponents half if you are defending.
by paultheroyal » 18 Oct 2021 11:11
RoyalBlueSnowflake Royal You know the job is simple if you have 30 minutes 3 camera angles and the ability to take stills at the exact moment.
Capture the same angle a couple of seconds later and it likely looks quite different.
TDB is ahead of his marker and the guy in the middle is stepping up.
It matters not that the guy in the middle is stepping up. The stills from Quest quite clearly capture the moment the ball leaves Ejaria's foot. At that moment, even allowing for camera angles, he is very clearly a lot closer to their goal than Dele-Bashiru; his rear foot appears in or very close to the next mower stripe whereas Dele-Bashiru is much further away from that stripe.
by Nameless » 18 Oct 2021 11:17
bcubedpaultheroyal I am in favour of the 10 yard dissent rule. I reckon that might happen. Show dissent and move ball forward 10 yards or into opponents half if you are defending.
Always seemed a blindingly obvious rule to bring in to me but didn't they try this years ago? Can't remember in what league. Maybe in America?
by RoyalBlue » 18 Oct 2021 11:17
paultheroyalRoyalBlueSnowflake Royal You know the job is simple if you have 30 minutes 3 camera angles and the ability to take stills at the exact moment.
Capture the same angle a couple of seconds later and it likely looks quite different.
TDB is ahead of his marker and the guy in the middle is stepping up.
It matters not that the guy in the middle is stepping up. The stills from Quest quite clearly capture the moment the ball leaves Ejaria's foot. At that moment, even allowing for camera angles, he is very clearly a lot closer to their goal than Dele-Bashiru; his rear foot appears in or very close to the next mower stripe whereas Dele-Bashiru is much further away from that stripe.
it really is not that simple...
by Hound » 18 Oct 2021 11:21
JedMaxwell On a slightly different note, is there not somewhere else people can go to have weird arguments about where they live and other personal dreck?
by Nameless » 18 Oct 2021 11:25
RoyalBluepaultheroyalRoyalBlue
It matters not that the guy in the middle is stepping up. The stills from Quest quite clearly capture the moment the ball leaves Ejaria's foot. At that moment, even allowing for camera angles, he is very clearly a lot closer to their goal than Dele-Bashiru; his rear foot appears in or very close to the next mower stripe whereas Dele-Bashiru is much further away from that stripe.
it really is not that simple...
I agree, often it is not. As I've mentioned previously, I found running the line incredibly difficult. However, I don't think this was one of the borderline/very difficult cases. For whatever reason, I think the official got this particular one wrong when he shouldn't have done. And yes, it cost us a goal like when our players miss a very clear cut chance when they shouldn't have done. Fans moan about that (particularly if it's Puscas! ) and likewise we are grumbling about this mistake. Fortunately, as it turned out, it didn't deprive us of any points.
by Snowflake Royal » 18 Oct 2021 11:58
RoyalBlueSnowflake Royal You know the job is simple if you have 30 minutes 3 camera angles and the ability to take stills at the exact moment.
Capture the same angle a couple of seconds later and it likely looks quite different.
TDB is ahead of his marker and the guy in the middle is stepping up.
It matters not that the guy in the middle is stepping up. The stills from Quest quite clearly capture the moment the ball leaves Ejaria's foot. At that moment, even allowing for camera angles, he is very clearly a lot closer to their goal than Dele-Bashiru; his rear foot appears in or very close to the next mower stripe, whereas Dele-Bashiru is much further away from that stripe. Personally I don't think this particular incident was one of the 'fine margins/split seconds' for which the official could be excused.
by Snowflake Royal » 18 Oct 2021 11:59
bcubedpaultheroyal I am in favour of the 10 yard dissent rule. I reckon that might happen. Show dissent and move ball forward 10 yards or into opponents half if you are defending.
Always seemed a blindingly obvious rule to bring in to me but didn't they try this years ago? Can't remember in what league. Maybe in America?
by NathStPaul » 18 Oct 2021 12:02
Snowflake Royalbcubedpaultheroyal I am in favour of the 10 yard dissent rule. I reckon that might happen. Show dissent and move ball forward 10 yards or into opponents half if you are defending.
Always seemed a blindingly obvious rule to bring in to me but didn't they try this years ago? Can't remember in what league. Maybe in America?
Prefer a dissent sinbin
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