Pauno out

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SCIAG
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Re: Pauno out

by SCIAG » 31 Oct 2021 00:35

Marcus Crassus Zonal marking has been an unmitigated disaster.

Ideological nonsense.

Zonal marking and man marking are roughly equally effective. You are falling victim to confirmation bias, remembering the times zonal marking has gone wrong while forgetting the times it has worked. If we concede a goal while marking man to man, presumably you would declare man marking to be an unmitigated disaster?

Bob Paisley and George Graham both used zonal marking, and they oversaw some of the best defences in history.

Some good reading:

https://www.skysports.com/football/news ... -perfectly
https://thefalse9.com/2016/11/zonal-mar ... rners.html
https://www.liverpoolway.co.uk/index.ph ... n-marking/

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Re: Pauno out

by leon » 31 Oct 2021 01:02

SCIAG
Marcus Crassus Zonal marking has been an unmitigated disaster.

Ideological nonsense.

Zonal marking and man marking are roughly equally effective. You are falling victim to confirmation bias, remembering the times zonal marking has gone wrong while forgetting the times it has worked. If we concede a goal while marking man to man, presumably you would declare man marking to be an unmitigated disaster?

Bob Paisley and George Graham both used zonal marking, and they oversaw some of the best defences in history.

Some good reading:

https://www.skysports.com/football/news ... -perfectly
https://thefalse9.com/2016/11/zonal-mar ... rners.html
https://www.liverpoolway.co.uk/index.ph ... n-marking/


Well since we are consistently and repetitively unable to defend set pieces I suggest you send this to the manager.

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Re: Pauno out

by Millsy » 31 Oct 2021 01:19

SCIAG
Marcus Crassus Zonal marking has been an unmitigated disaster.

Ideological nonsense.

Zonal marking and man marking are roughly equally effective. You are falling victim to confirmation bias, remembering the times zonal marking has gone wrong while forgetting the times it has worked. If we concede a goal while marking man to man, presumably you would declare man marking to be an unmitigated disaster?

Bob Paisley and George Graham both used zonal marking, and they oversaw some of the best defences in history.

Some good reading:

https://www.skysports.com/football/news ... -perfectly
https://thefalse9.com/2016/11/zonal-mar ... rners.html
https://www.liverpoolway.co.uk/index.ph ... n-marking/


Good job defending the club again. They must be proud of you! ;) (joke!)

Thanks for educating me on this a while back when I asked, I did learn a lot.

But IIRC you did at the time say you were actually a fan of man-marking and that for set pieces it's considered a better way to go.

In any case, what legendary managers with top flight teams and world class players and coaches have achieved is not relevant to our situation. Our discussion has always rightly centred around OUR ability (both as a club and with the championship players we have) to implement it. You may of course be right with confirmation bias but unless we do a study of our effectiveness at set pieces and compare the stats we can speculate as much as we want. Could be confirmation bias, could be the truth. As could the converse be. BUT when we are notoriously bad at set pieces, are shipping 2-3 goals a game, when commentators are sadly predicting that we're going to let in a goal moments before a set piece and all fans can see it coming then you have to take a step back and wonder if we can wave this away as confirmation bias nonsense or admit that FOR US it's just not working.

I'd certainly take the word of ex professional players and managers who have watched every Reading game without fail for years on end and know the Championship inside out over that of a manager totally new to English football, used to playing at a much higher level in his playing days when they say scream week in week out that zonal marking doesn't work for US. And certainly, with respect, over the opinions of "some bloke on the internet" ;)

As a side point, I don't know wtf Laurent was doing in defence not even challenging Solanke for the goal.

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Re: Pauno out

by Zip » 31 Oct 2021 01:29

I’m with Ian in that I don’t think much of Pauno but for now would let him carry on for a bit longer. If this poor run continues I can’t see the owners backing him for much longer though.

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Re: Pauno out

by Stranded » 31 Oct 2021 05:20

Just to point out. We only use zonal marking at corners. Yesterday was the first goal conceded from a corner & arguably it should have been cleared off the line anyway.


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Re: Pauno out

by Sutekh » 31 Oct 2021 06:57

Reading’s most effective (in fact only) strikeforce is a combination Involving both Joao and Meite, with them out the club has absolutely nothing up front that fits the system that the management stubbornly refuse to change. Thus there is a real struggle to pose any real threat to opponents in games currently.

And that’s the problem, one system (4-2-3-1) for every game. Whether the club were playing Talley Calleva or PSG it’d be the same system and if that means playing players out of position and dulling their effectiveness as a consequence then so be it.

The style is also not perfect. It’s too boring and slow, there’s still too much passing just for passing’s sake and not enough directness or pace in the team. In addition the tempo is wrong and it seems the management/team are too often content to try and cling onto 1 goal leads too early in games and therefore invite unnecessary pressure by playing deeper and deeper during games. There is also little to no flexibility in games (unsurprisingly no real plan B) and substitutions are usually some combination of non existent, bewildering or predictable even with a full set of options on the bench.

And this was apparent in the second half of last season when the club contrived to throw away the superb start it had had so isn’t just a current malaise brought about by the utterly unbelievable run of bad luck with injuries.

Overall Reading are stuck in a cul-de-sac and have been ever since Adkins took over only now it’s become one continual struggle of nothingness every season that sees the club no more than lower mid table fodder at best (the average league finish over the last 7 years is around 14th) which, given the general standard of players that have been available is complete underachievement.

And now the combination of poor managerial decisions and ridiculous player signings has caught up with the club and it is unlikely to be able to really clear the decks and break free of this “stuck record” situation until the summer of 2023 - and by then who knows what state the world, let alone the game itself will be in.

Actually, despite all that, I think VP should be given longer, there are some bad circumstances behind the scenes and he does have some bright young talent just starting out. If he can learn too and become a little more flexible in his outlook then there’s some foundation being laid for the future.

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Re: Pauno out

by Brogue » 31 Oct 2021 08:26

Just reading his post match comments. The pressure is getting to him and he’s lost it by all accounts.

‘Last year we conceded 0 goals from set-pieces but there are many things that are involved. They prepared well.

"I understand you guys [the media] want to flip things around. It is what it is, this team had a very good display but unfortunately, we didn't take our chances which were first in the game, and better, and very well done [created].

"That's a positive thing and on the other side we conceded a goal from a set-piece and that really p***** me off.

"And what p***** me off more is we have to look to help this team that is competing with 10 or 11 guys every game.’

I’m not really sure what not conceding a goal from a corner last season has got to do with anything.

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Re: Pauno out

by Snowflake Royal » 31 Oct 2021 08:35

Stranded Just to point out. We only use zonal marking at corners. Yesterday was the first goal conceded from a corner & arguably it should have been cleared off the line anyway.

That can't be right, because that goal came exactly the same way multiple ones have earlier in the season.


11 in the box. Stood around the 6 yard box, simple ball beyond the back post to someone unmarked. Then either straight in , or back across goal to a player who is unmarked with one of our defenders standing in space looking gormless rather than challenging the header.

I don't know which is wrong, first goal from a corner or zonal from fks, but I suspect both.

Reading have conceded the second most goals from set pieces in the division. That's joint 5th worst in the FL. Unacceptable.

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Re: Pauno out

by Hound » 31 Oct 2021 08:41

The goal conceded from the corner yesterday was awful. Cahill totally unmarked and Laurent ducking for some reason on the goal line. As said before its not that it makes 'zonal' bad and 'man marking' good, its just poorly executed from our side.

Really don't like the 11 back in the box - that failed against Blackpool. And then even with that how Cahill can have the freedom of the penalty area. Absolutely need to get it sorted.


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Re: Pauno out

by Snowflake Royal » 31 Oct 2021 08:55

Hound The goal conceded from the corner yesterday was awful. Cahill totally unmarked and Laurent ducking for some reason on the goal line. As said before its not that it makes 'zonal' bad and 'man marking' good, its just poorly executed from our side.

Really don't like the 11 back in the box - that failed against Blackpool. And then even with that how Cahill can have the freedom of the penalty area. Absolutely need to get it sorted.

Yep we could have 13 in the box and it wouldn’t make a difference.

I have nothing against zonal marking. What I'm apoplectic about is a system of defending a corner which is trivially easy to beat and often doesn’t involve us even challenging to win the ball.

How can they see the ball pumped back post every time and still have no one set up to deal with it?

At the very least move one player to the byline 3 yards beyond the post and instruct him to attack any deep balls. Any moron can find one of half a dozen solutions.

I don't care how well Pauno thinks it should work. It's 15 games worth of failing. He needs to accept his idea is shit, his players cannot do it or he can't communicate it. And he needs to do something totally different because it's tainted beyond repair.

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Re: Pauno out

by leon » 31 Oct 2021 09:29

Stranded Just to point out. We only use zonal marking at corners. Yesterday was the first goal conceded from a corner & arguably it should have been cleared off the line anyway.


Everything’s ok then. Great news.

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Re: Pauno out

by Zip » 31 Oct 2021 10:31

Snowflake Royal
Stranded Just to point out. We only use zonal marking at corners. Yesterday was the first goal conceded from a corner & arguably it should have been cleared off the line anyway.

That can't be right, because that goal came exactly the same way multiple ones have earlier in the season.


11 in the box. Stood around the 6 yard box, simple ball beyond the back post to someone unmarked. Then either straight in , or back across goal to a player who is unmarked with one of our defenders standing in space looking gormless rather than challenging the header.

I don't know which is wrong, first goal from a corner or zonal from fks, but I suspect both.

Reading have conceded the second most goals from set pieces in the division. That's joint 5th worst in the FL. Unacceptable.



It certainly isn’t right. We conceded from a corner in our last home game v Blackpool. It’s also a repeat of so many set piece goals conceded this season. He doesn’t want to learn.

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Re: Pauno out

by Zip » 31 Oct 2021 10:35

I think SCIAG must have been the man screaming at a young lad for a number of minutes during the second half in the ED last night. In the end a steward got involved. He seemed to be ranting that the lad wasn’t supporting the team.

Just going back to the game we started really well. On the front foot and played some nice stuff but gradually Bournemouth eased their way into the match. Once they scored it was effectively game over.


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Re: Pauno out

by Hound » 31 Oct 2021 11:16

SCIAG
Marcus Crassus Zonal marking has been an unmitigated disaster.

Ideological nonsense.

Zonal marking and man marking are roughly equally effective. You are falling victim to confirmation bias, remembering the times zonal marking has gone wrong while forgetting the times it has worked. If we concede a goal while marking man to man, presumably you would declare man marking to be an unmitigated disaster?

Bob Paisley and George Graham both used zonal marking, and they oversaw some of the best defences in history.

Some good reading:

https://www.skysports.com/football/news ... -perfectly
https://thefalse9.com/2016/11/zonal-mar ... rners.html
https://www.liverpoolway.co.uk/index.ph ... n-marking/


For some reason one of my boys recorded the game so had a look back

For the Bournemouth goal - we are actually man marking the 3 in the middle. They then used the lump Billing and one of their other players to block the 3 Reading man markers off whilst Cahill went off on his own. Whoever was marking Cahill (Swift or Yiadom) couldn't make it because Billing stopped them doing so

So actually zonal done properly probably would have actually defended the corner far better than man marking in this instance.

Still doesn't change the fact that the long ball to the back on the corner seems to be constantly defended poorly by us

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Re: Pauno out

by windermereROYAL » 31 Oct 2021 11:20

Pauno as his faults and an a few at that, but I would challenge any manager to cope with the almost unheard of injury crisis we are experiencing right now with just 12 match fit senior players.
It`s debatable if he will get a contract renewal in the summer so it`s best to stick with him imo rather than getting someone else in and the board numpties calling for his head when he doesn`t turn it around inside a month.

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Re: Pauno out

by Hound » 31 Oct 2021 11:33

its not just the injuries, its the fact that 7 out of our 11 starting yesterday are out of contract in the summer (and the one we probably would like to be out of contract isnt). The points deduction hanging over us. 2 years+ of embargoes and no cash signings. Some unrealistic expectations at the club

Its a tough gig - he is doing ok imo. Certainly things on the pitch that could be massively improved but then things could be an awful lot worse with a different manager as well

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Re: Pauno out

by Snowflake Royal » 31 Oct 2021 11:39

Unless something significant changes, I'm now fully on board saying goodbye at the end of his contract.

He's really not moved us far forward from where Bowen had us, we're currently regressing on even that. And much of his success is built on those first 8 games last season which is looking increasingly like Bowen's legacy and O'Shea's influence more than anything Paunovic has done.

Have to say I'm starting to feel vindicated on the view that our upturn had little to do with any decisions he made that weren't just enforced on him.

At least he isn't Gomes / Stam2 / Clarke / Clement. Though there's time for Stam2 yet.

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Re: Pauno out

by Franchise FC » 31 Oct 2021 11:53

Snowflake Royal Unless something significant changes, I'm now fully on board saying goodbye at the end of his contract.

He's really not moved us far forward from where Bowen had us, we're currently regressing on even that. And much of his success is built on those first 8 games last season which is looking increasingly like Bowen's legacy and O'Shea's influence more than anything Paunovic has done.

Have to say I'm starting to feel vindicated on the view that our upturn had little to do with any decisions he made that weren't just enforced on him.

At least he isn't Gomes / Stam2 / Clarke / Clement. Though there's time for Stam2 yet.

So he hasn’t moved us far forward since Bowen.

Which suggests we’re at least as good as we were under Bowen. Achieved whilst missing a long list of injured players.

I’m not particularly in the IN or OUT camp, but suggesting he should have taken us further ahead of where we were under the current circumstances is a little difficult to understand.

Or maybe I’m just stupid

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Re: Pauno out

by Stranded » 31 Oct 2021 20:40

Zip
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Stranded Just to point out. We only use zonal marking at corners. Yesterday was the first goal conceded from a corner & arguably it should have been cleared off the line anyway.

That can't be right, because that goal came exactly the same way multiple ones have earlier in the season.


11 in the box. Stood around the 6 yard box, simple ball beyond the back post to someone unmarked. Then either straight in , or back across goal to a player who is unmarked with one of our defenders standing in space looking gormless rather than challenging the header.

I don't know which is wrong, first goal from a corner or zonal from fks, but I suspect both.

Reading have conceded the second most goals from set pieces in the division. That's joint 5th worst in the FL. Unacceptable.



It certainly isn’t right. We conceded from a corner in our last home game v Blackpool. It’s also a repeat of so many set piece goals conceded this season. He doesn’t want to learn.


We conceded from 2nd phase having cleared the ball out of the box. At set pieces from outside of the box, we use more of a high line that has had us caught out. Proper zonal marking has only been used, effectively, at corners this season.

As mentioned, yesterday's goal was caused by blocking players to free up Cahill, we try to employ similar tactics when we have corners. When it works it looks simple and we should have done better but it was not a fault of how we set up.

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Re: Pauno out

by Zip » 31 Oct 2021 20:48

Stranded
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Snowflake Royal That can't be right, because that goal came exactly the same way multiple ones have earlier in the season.


11 in the box. Stood around the 6 yard box, simple ball beyond the back post to someone unmarked. Then either straight in , or back across goal to a player who is unmarked with one of our defenders standing in space looking gormless rather than challenging the header.

I don't know which is wrong, first goal from a corner or zonal from fks, but I suspect both.

Reading have conceded the second most goals from set pieces in the division. That's joint 5th worst in the FL. Unacceptable.



It certainly isn’t right. We conceded from a corner in our last home game v Blackpool. It’s also a repeat of so many set piece goals conceded this season. He doesn’t want to learn.


We conceded from 2nd phase having cleared the ball out of the box. At set pieces from outside of the box, we use more of a high line that has had us caught out. Proper zonal marking has only been used, effectively, at corners this season.

As mentioned, yesterday's goal was caused by blocking players to free up Cahill, we try to employ similar tactics when we have corners. When it works it looks simple and we should have done better but it was not a fault of how we set up.



I disagree. Second phase or not Blackpool scored as a result of a corner we failed to clear to safety.
As for the blocking again I disagree. We always leave players unmarked at the back post both from corners and free kicks and we so often get punished.

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