Points Deduction Incoming!

[WestYorksRoyal]

Not quite sure of the veracity of the information but read an article recently which had details of premier players on less than £10k per week. Some staggeringly low figures e.g.

Pukki £8k
Curtis Jones £4K
Both Longstaffs at Newcastle are on less than a grand a week

So, there may be decent players within our limited budget.

After the fallout of Covid, very few Championship clubs are in a position to offer but wages, and the majority of players will have to adjust their wage expectations accordingly. We can compete within the guidelines

[Stranded]

Also having read the judgement now, the suspended points are not just if we breach the budget but if we exceed the upper P&S limit again. Given we missed it by 18m, I assume there must be a fairly sizeable risk we will breach again next season?

I assume the budget will keep us under that.

If so, we would be looking at minus 6 plus any additional penalty for a second breach - which would likely be 9 minimum. So if we aren't very careful, we could have a minumum -15 to deal with next year.

[paultheroyal]

Are other club forums in meltdown?

The scouting and recruitment team now need to be working overtime.

We need to be finding the Antonio's and Vardy's of this world ripping up the National League, League 2 etc.

These players then built around the exciting crop of academy talent and existing players who will be sticking around.

Seems a given that the likes of Moore, Swift will be gone.

Then we need to fight for our lives next season.

[Orion1871]

Are other club forums in meltdown?

The scouting and recruitment team now need to be working overtime.

We need to be finding the Antonio's and Vardy's of this world ripping up the National League, League 2 etc.

These players then built around the exciting crop of academy talent and existing players who will be sticking around.

Seems a given that the likes of Moore, Swift will be gone.

Then we need to fight for our lives next season.

What about that Scottish lad who scored a load of goals for Coventry a few years ago?

[paultheroyal]

Are other club forums in meltdown?

The scouting and recruitment team now need to be working overtime.

We need to be finding the Antonio's and Vardy's of this world ripping up the National League, League 2 etc.

These players then built around the exciting crop of academy talent and existing players who will be sticking around.

Seems a given that the likes of Moore, Swift will be gone.

Then we need to fight for our lives next season.

What about that Scottish lad who scored a load of goals for Coventry a few years ago?

Paul Telfer? Although local, he has retired now.

[windermereROYAL]

Are other club forums in meltdown?

The scouting and recruitment team now need to be working overtime.

We need to be finding the Antonio's and Vardy's of this world ripping up the National League, League 2 etc.

These players then built around the exciting crop of academy talent and existing players who will be sticking around.

Seems a given that the likes of Moore, Swift will be gone.

Then we need to fight for our lives next season.

What about that Scottish lad who scored a load of goals for Coventry a few years ago?

Paul Telfer? Although local, he has retired now.

Unless I`m worthy of a whoosh he`s talking about McNulty

[Linden Jones' Tash]

Not quite sure of the veracity of the information but read an article recently which had details of premier players on less than £10k per week. Some staggeringly low figures e.g.

Pukki £8k
Curtis Jones £4K
Both Longstaffs at Newcastle are on less than a grand a week

So, there may be decent players within our limited budget.

That's quite surprising as you'd expect Premier League players to be on big bucks.

The trick will be to find players like the examples given who are either:

- going to become free agents in the summer (can they be approached in the January window like Laurent was?) and be willing to join Reading on a reasonable wage

or

- to find a club like Chelsea who are willing to loan us players with no loan fee and still pay the majority of their wages.

I guess a lot of the business will be done towards the back-end of the window as players will likely hold out for better options, though now the club know the rules they have can get their feelers out in plenty of time plus the business done this summer has been excellent given the constraints already in place.

Does the plan mention contract length as this season it was limited to 1 year?

Also, does 'A maximum of 25 “permitted players” (players with 3+ starts in Championship or PL)' mean for any club or just for Reading? If any club I guess we look to the lower leagues/abroad.

Yep recruitment needs to be smart, we also don't appear to be constrained to 1 year deals next season as we are this.

Can someone check my maths a bit here too:

If next years wage budget is 16m - if all 25 players are paid the same that would be an annual salary per player of 640,000GBP.

That equates to a weekly salary of 12.3k - is it me or is that not actually too bad for the Championship? I know the average wage is higher than that but that is skewed by the salaries of recently relegated players, so 12k is probably not far off what most decent Champ players earn.

There will be players out of contract next summer on less than that - seen figures that peg Laurent at about 4k pw for example - so given we will lose at least a couple of high earners, there would be scope to increase his salary in a contract extension to 6 or 8k pw and be within the rules.

Especially when you factor in the likes of Southwood, McIntyre etc are probably earning only a couple of grand a week at the mo.

Now I've based this on the playing staff having a 16m limit but not sure if the coaching staff salaries would need to form part of that total outlay.

I tried to do the same calculation - and you probably have to factor in add-ons etc - so its might be £10k/week.

however, I have since come to the conclusion that the £16M is probably the total wage bill on the assumption that our Income is around £32M and we should be aiming for 50% staff to revenue costs.

One thing that isn't being talked about is the other side of the coin - how does a club like Reading, with wealthy owners increase the revenue to enable more to be spent on players?

As discussed on a previous thread, the Championship is a busted flush and you have to gamble and accept the punishment.
Until there is a reset, quality players will play for clubs willing to pay them the most and that won't be us any more.

[URZZZZ]

Are other club forums in meltdown?

The scouting and recruitment team now need to be working overtime.

We need to be finding the Antonio's and Vardy's of this world ripping up the National League, League 2 etc.

These players then built around the exciting crop of academy talent and existing players who will be sticking around.

Seems a given that the likes of Moore, Swift will be gone.

Then we need to fight for our lives next season.

What about that Scottish lad who scored a load of goals for Coventry a few years ago?

You talking about the one who was never given a proper chance?

[Stranded]

That's quite surprising as you'd expect Premier League players to be on big bucks.

The trick will be to find players like the examples given who are either:

- going to become free agents in the summer (can they be approached in the January window like Laurent was?) and be willing to join Reading on a reasonable wage

or

- to find a club like Chelsea who are willing to loan us players with no loan fee and still pay the majority of their wages.

I guess a lot of the business will be done towards the back-end of the window as players will likely hold out for better options, though now the club know the rules they have can get their feelers out in plenty of time plus the business done this summer has been excellent given the constraints already in place.

Does the plan mention contract length as this season it was limited to 1 year?

Also, does 'A maximum of 25 “permitted players” (players with 3+ starts in Championship or PL)' mean for any club or just for Reading? If any club I guess we look to the lower leagues/abroad.

Yep recruitment needs to be smart, we also don't appear to be constrained to 1 year deals next season as we are this.

Can someone check my maths a bit here too:

If next years wage budget is 16m - if all 25 players are paid the same that would be an annual salary per player of 640,000GBP.

That equates to a weekly salary of 12.3k - is it me or is that not actually too bad for the Championship? I know the average wage is higher than that but that is skewed by the salaries of recently relegated players, so 12k is probably not far off what most decent Champ players earn.

There will be players out of contract next summer on less than that - seen figures that peg Laurent at about 4k pw for example - so given we will lose at least a couple of high earners, there would be scope to increase his salary in a contract extension to 6 or 8k pw and be within the rules.

Especially when you factor in the likes of Southwood, McIntyre etc are probably earning only a couple of grand a week at the mo.

Now I've based this on the playing staff having a 16m limit but not sure if the coaching staff salaries would need to form part of that total outlay.

I tried to do the same calculation - and you probably have to factor in add-ons etc - so its might be £10k/week.

however, I have since come to the conclusion that the £16M is probably the total wage bill on the assumption that our Income is around £32M and we should be aiming for 50% staff to revenue costs.

One thing that isn't being talked about is the other side of the coin - how does a club like Reading, with wealthy owners increase the revenue to enable more to be spent on players?

As discussed on a previous thread, the Championship is a busted flush and you have to gamble and accept the punishment.
Until there is a reset, quality players will play for clubs willing to pay them the most and that won't be us any more.

I'd be surprised if it is looking at wages being 50% of income - it is more likely that the 21.1m figure this year and the 16m figure next year has been calculated as the figures we need to hit to be under the permitted losses upper threshold based on whatever the projected income is going to be - if not then we will be in serious crap next year as we would get hit with 2 points deductions if we breach.

[paultheroyal]

Owners are wealthy - is there anything that can be done to show income being received? To me this all comes down to how big your gate receipts are, right? So, the likes of Wycombe, Wigan and Rotherham have no chance hence yo-yoing?

[Snowflake Royal]

That's quite surprising as you'd expect Premier League players to be on big bucks.

The trick will be to find players like the examples given who are either:

- going to become free agents in the summer (can they be approached in the January window like Laurent was?) and be willing to join Reading on a reasonable wage

or

- to find a club like Chelsea who are willing to loan us players with no loan fee and still pay the majority of their wages.

I guess a lot of the business will be done towards the back-end of the window as players will likely hold out for better options, though now the club know the rules they have can get their feelers out in plenty of time plus the business done this summer has been excellent given the constraints already in place.

Does the plan mention contract length as this season it was limited to 1 year?

Also, does 'A maximum of 25 “permitted players” (players with 3+ starts in Championship or PL)' mean for any club or just for Reading? If any club I guess we look to the lower leagues/abroad.

Yep recruitment needs to be smart, we also don't appear to be constrained to 1 year deals next season as we are this.

Can someone check my maths a bit here too:

If next years wage budget is 16m - if all 25 players are paid the same that would be an annual salary per player of 640,000GBP.

That equates to a weekly salary of 12.3k - is it me or is that not actually too bad for the Championship? I know the average wage is higher than that but that is skewed by the salaries of recently relegated players, so 12k is probably not far off what most decent Champ players earn.

There will be players out of contract next summer on less than that - seen figures that peg Laurent at about 4k pw for example - so given we will lose at least a couple of high earners, there would be scope to increase his salary in a contract extension to 6 or 8k pw and be within the rules.

Especially when you factor in the likes of Southwood, McIntyre etc are probably earning only a couple of grand a week at the mo.

Now I've based this on the playing staff having a 16m limit but not sure if the coaching staff salaries would need to form part of that total outlay.

I tried to do the same calculation - and you probably have to factor in add-ons etc - so its might be £10k/week.

however, I have since come to the conclusion that the £16M is probably the total wage bill on the assumption that our Income is around £32M and we should be aiming for 50% staff to revenue costs.

One thing that isn't being talked about is the other side of the coin - how does a club like Reading, with wealthy owners increase the revenue to enable more to be spent on players?

As discussed on a previous thread, the Championship is a busted flush and you have to gamble and accept the punishment.
Until there is a reset, quality players will play for clubs willing to pay them the most and that won't be us any more.

Where on earth are you getting our income at £32m? It's teens.

[Stranded]

This is the text from the decision regarding the penalty:

7. The Suspended Penalty will be in addition to any sanction to be imposed in respect of:
7.1 any further breach(es) of the P&S Rules, including but not limited to further breaches of the
Upper Loss Threshold; and/or
7.2 any breach(es) of the Budget,
and shall not operate to mitigate any sanction that may be imposed for such a breach.
8. The Club will continue to be bound by and shall observe the P&S Rules.
9. Assessment of the Club’s compliance with the P&S Rules for the reporting periods ending with Season
2021/22 (and, if applicable, Season 2022/23) will reflect the principle that the Adjusted Earnings Before
Tax for each of the financial years up to and including Season 2020/21 will be capped at Adjusted
Earnings Before Tax of a loss of £13m, or such other Loss Thresholds set out in the P&S Rules in the
event they are amended.

Am I reading this right that this season will be considered as a 13m loss in the next P&S review - meaning for the previous 2 (or 3) seasons we can only have lost 26m not to breach again next year? Am I right in thinking we pretty much know that is impossible - therefore a further deduction next season is inevitable and this time it would be around -15 points?

It is paragraph 9 that I don't quite get - or is it a case if we follow the plan, then for P&S it will be taken that we have lost 13m per season in each of the qualifying seasons even if the actual losses were higher? Therefore we couldn't breach again until the 23/24 season?

[Snowflake Royal]

This is the text from the decision regarding the penalty:

7. The Suspended Penalty will be in addition to any sanction to be imposed in respect of:
7.1 any further breach(es) of the P&S Rules, including but not limited to further breaches of the
Upper Loss Threshold; and/or
7.2 any breach(es) of the Budget,
and shall not operate to mitigate any sanction that may be imposed for such a breach.
8. The Club will continue to be bound by and shall observe the P&S Rules.
9. Assessment of the Club’s compliance with the P&S Rules for the reporting periods ending with Season
2021/22 (and, if applicable, Season 2022/23) will reflect the principle that the Adjusted Earnings Before
Tax for each of the financial years up to and including Season 2020/21 will be capped at Adjusted
Earnings Before Tax of a loss of £13m, or such other Loss Thresholds set out in the P&S Rules in the
event they are amended.

Am I reading this right that this season will be considered as a 13m loss in the next P&S review - meaning for the previous 2 (or 3) seasons we can only have lost 26m not to breach again next year? Am I right in thinking we pretty much know that is impossible - therefore a further deduction next season is inevitable and this time it would be around -15 points?

It is paragraph 9 that I don't quite get - or is it a case if we follow the plan, then for P&S it will be taken that we have lost 13m per season in each of the qualifying seasons even if the actual losses were higher? Therefore we couldn't breach again until the 23/24 season?

I think its reiterating that the normal limits still apply, not that our loss will be considered as if it was £13m now we've been penalised.

[Stranded]

This is the text from the decision regarding the penalty:

7. The Suspended Penalty will be in addition to any sanction to be imposed in respect of:
7.1 any further breach(es) of the P&S Rules, including but not limited to further breaches of the
Upper Loss Threshold; and/or
7.2 any breach(es) of the Budget,
and shall not operate to mitigate any sanction that may be imposed for such a breach.
8. The Club will continue to be bound by and shall observe the P&S Rules.
9. Assessment of the Club’s compliance with the P&S Rules for the reporting periods ending with Season
2021/22 (and, if applicable, Season 2022/23) will reflect the principle that the Adjusted Earnings Before
Tax for each of the financial years up to and including Season 2020/21 will be capped at Adjusted
Earnings Before Tax of a loss of £13m, or such other Loss Thresholds set out in the P&S Rules in the
event they are amended.

Am I reading this right that this season will be considered as a 13m loss in the next P&S review - meaning for the previous 2 (or 3) seasons we can only have lost 26m not to breach again next year? Am I right in thinking we pretty much know that is impossible - therefore a further deduction next season is inevitable and this time it would be around -15 points?

It is paragraph 9 that I don't quite get - or is it a case if we follow the plan, then for P&S it will be taken that we have lost 13m per season in each of the qualifying seasons even if the actual losses were higher? Therefore we couldn't breach again until the 23/24 season?

I think its reiterating that the normal limits still apply, not that our loss will be considered as if it was £13m now we've been penalised.

If that is the case (and I'm not 100% convinced, as why set parameters that it is impossible for us to meet), it would suggest to me if we don't go up next year that an additional penalty is pretty much nailed on next season and one that will make relegation close to impossible to avoid.

[Sutekh]

Is my maths right and the package being mentioned basically limits our average to around £10k a week?
Probably less as it covers more than just the 25 premium players?

So a fire sale of most of our assets...

To be honest that should really leave just Moore on silly money next season as Swift won’t be at the club and I would imagine he’s the next highest earner. One would hope the figure agreed with the FL is a “comfortable” figure for the club. Out of interest does anyone know how it compares to the average for the division (excluding those clubs relegated from the in the last couple of seasons)?

[morganb]

This is the text from the decision regarding the penalty:

Am I reading this right that this season will be considered as a 13m loss in the next P&S review - meaning for the previous 2 (or 3) seasons we can only have lost 26m not to breach again next year? Am I right in thinking we pretty much know that is impossible - therefore a further deduction next season is inevitable and this time it would be around -15 points?

It is paragraph 9 that I don't quite get - or is it a case if we follow the plan, then for P&S it will be taken that we have lost 13m per season in each of the qualifying seasons even if the actual losses were higher? Therefore we couldn't breach again until the 23/24 season?

I think its reiterating that the normal limits still apply, not that our loss will be considered as if it was £13m now we've been penalised.

If that is the case (and I'm not 100% convinced, as why set parameters that it is impossible for us to meet), it would suggest to me if we don't go up next year that an additional penalty is pretty much nailed on next season and one that will make relegation close to impossible to avoid.

I think this is saying

will reflect the principle that the Adjusted Earnings Before
Tax for each of the financial years up to and including Season 2020/21 will be capped at Adjusted
Earnings Before Tax of a loss of £13m

that losses for previous years up to and including 2020/21 will, for accounting purposes, be classed as a £13m loss. This handles the 3-year rolling period.

Then the values in this paragraph:

The Club and EFL have agreed a cap on Total Player Salary Costs of not more than £21.1m in the current Season, reducing to £16m in the following Season.

Refer to the maximum we can spend (not what losses we can make) and is probably adjusted based on what the current wages are and what they should look like next season (based on savings due to highly paid players on expiring contracts) coupled with projected income.

You would hope the club would not have accepted a deal where were are set up to fail from the start.

[Stranded]

Ok that makes more sense, so taking a 3 year cycle then - for P&S we will have lost 26m over the first 2 seasons, so this season we must not lose more than 13m and the salary budget has been set to give us the best chance (but not ensure) possible to do so. Same for next year.

Once an old year drops off the calculations, it is replaced by that years actual losses.

That makes much more sense.

[Linden Jones' Tash]

Yep recruitment needs to be smart, we also don't appear to be constrained to 1 year deals next season as we are this.

Can someone check my maths a bit here too:

If next years wage budget is 16m - if all 25 players are paid the same that would be an annual salary per player of 640,000GBP.

That equates to a weekly salary of 12.3k - is it me or is that not actually too bad for the Championship? I know the average wage is higher than that but that is skewed by the salaries of recently relegated players, so 12k is probably not far off what most decent Champ players earn.

There will be players out of contract next summer on less than that - seen figures that peg Laurent at about 4k pw for example - so given we will lose at least a couple of high earners, there would be scope to increase his salary in a contract extension to 6 or 8k pw and be within the rules.

Especially when you factor in the likes of Southwood, McIntyre etc are probably earning only a couple of grand a week at the mo.

Now I've based this on the playing staff having a 16m limit but not sure if the coaching staff salaries would need to form part of that total outlay.

I tried to do the same calculation - and you probably have to factor in add-ons etc - so its might be £10k/week.

however, I have since come to the conclusion that the £16M is probably the total wage bill on the assumption that our Income is around £32M and we should be aiming for 50% staff to revenue costs.

One thing that isn't being talked about is the other side of the coin - how does a club like Reading, with wealthy owners increase the revenue to enable more to be spent on players?

As discussed on a previous thread, the Championship is a busted flush and you have to gamble and accept the punishment.
Until there is a reset, quality players will play for clubs willing to pay them the most and that won't be us any more.

Where on earth are you getting our income at £32m? It's teens.

my bad, you are right, I was confusing my years - it's even worse than I had jumbled up in my head

even with a drastic cut in costs, the revenue is a drop in the ocean

[paultheroyal]

This is the text from the decision regarding the penalty:



Am I reading this right that this season will be considered as a 13m loss in the next P&S review - meaning for the previous 2 (or 3) seasons we can only have lost 26m not to breach again next year? Am I right in thinking we pretty much know that is impossible - therefore a further deduction next season is inevitable and this time it would be around -15 points?

It is paragraph 9 that I don't quite get - or is it a case if we follow the plan, then for P&S it will be taken that we have lost 13m per season in each of the qualifying seasons even if the actual losses were higher? Therefore we couldn't breach again until the 23/24 season?

I think its reiterating that the normal limits still apply, not that our loss will be considered as if it was £13m now we've been penalised.

If that is the case (and I'm not 100% convinced, as why set parameters that it is impossible for us to meet), it would suggest to me if we don't go up next year that an additional penalty is pretty much nailed on next season and one that will make relegation close to impossible to avoid.

think you are reading way to much into this. Our wage bill has been slashed this season. We probably have gone from being at the very top to pretty much middle of the road. Wage bill for next season will be minimal and probably one of the cheapest in the division. It is basically a total reset.

[Mr Angry]

To my mind "a total reset" is no bad thing.

I think the club began to lose its way when the Russian fraud came in, and it got worse under the Thais; if we can use this punishment and the subsequent scrutiny of the business as an opportunity to basically start again and rediscover what made us the club we once were, a club that tried to do things the right way (didn't always succeed, but thats by the by) then something positive will come out of the whole sorry mess and embarassment.