by Snowflake Royal » 29 Aug 2022 10:32
by NewCorkSeth » 29 Aug 2022 10:33
Snowflake RoyalHendoSnowflake Royal Leave on a free iirc.
Him and Dickie were so obviously class as well.
Not really sure how you can judge how class they were, seeing as they made 1 professional appearance for the club between them.
As with Antonio, they don't become they players they are if they're kept here and play bit parts behind more senior defenders. They've grown as footballers because they've had regular playing time at a lower level and from that experience and development are now at a level where they would be first choice for us.
They don't get that if they stay here.
Sometimes you just have to admit it is the right player at the wrong time.
Because I also saw them play a bunch of youth football.
Antonio is a completely different scenario. He got chances in the first team, and he wasn’t up to it at that time, he came from the lower leagues so was very raw, he was up against quality competition and then we got promoted.
When Dickie and Hyam left, and Cooper and Stacey, we didn't get promoted, we were struggling financially, we kept spending loads on mediocrity and we had holes in the squad.
Take Dickie and Stacey and compare with Holmes and McIntyre for example. The Toms have got a lot of their performances breaking through out of position at fullback. We could easily have offered that route to Dickie or Stacey as RB cover as we had few options there at the time.
We spent millions on Blackett and Illori.
Yes, they got where they are by playing. But there was room for them to play for us.
Fact is, I said it at the time for Dickie, Hyam and Stacey, and I've been proved right on all three cases.
by NewCorkSeth » 29 Aug 2022 10:34
HendoSnowflake RoyalHendo
Not really sure how you can judge how class they were, seeing as they made 1 professional appearance for the club between them.
As with Antonio, they don't become they players they are if they're kept here and play bit parts behind more senior defenders. They've grown as footballers because they've had regular playing time at a lower level and from that experience and development are now at a level where they would be first choice for us.
They don't get that if they stay here.
Sometimes you just have to admit it is the right player at the wrong time.
Because I also saw them play a bunch of youth football.
Antonio is a completely different scenario. He got chances in the first team, and he wasn’t up to it at that time, he came from the lower leagues so was very raw, he was up against quality competition and then we got promoted.
When Dickie and Hyam left, and Cooper and Stacey, we didn't get promoted, we were struggling financially, we kept spending loads on mediocrity and we had holes in the squad.
Take Dickie and Stacey and compare with Holmes and McIntyre for example. The Toms have got a lot of their performances breaking through out of position at fullback. We could easily have offered that route to Dickie or Stacey as RB cover as we had few options there at the time.
We spent millions on Blackett and Illori.
Yes, they got where they are by playing. But there was room for them to play for us.
Fact is, I said it at the time for Dickie, Hyam and Stacey, and I've been proved right on all three cases.
Find it hard to take watching youth football and being able to compare that to mens professional football. The list of players who have looked good at youth level and not made the step up, must be incredibly long. Standouts for Reading off the top of my head:
Kuhl
Kelly
Loader
Barret
Davies
Taylor
There may have been a route for them in the first team, but they would've still been very bit-part players, not playing week in, week out as they were when dropping down a level.
Who knows how that could've impacted on their development, but I would lean more towards them getting regular game time as being a huge contributing factor for where they are now.
Think this will also apply more to defenders than forwards as a young defender, who will naturally make mistakes, is going to be chastised for it at a club looking to progress to the Premier League, see Cooper as an example. There isn't as much pressure on them at a lower level, where a) mistakes may not get punished with as much regularity b) mistakes can be more forgiven.
Managers will pretty much always try to bring in more experienced players than playing un-tried youth players, if they're able to. Obviously there are exceptions to that when you have someone as talented as Olise and it is painfully obvious he is ready to make the step up.
Other thing to note is that this will happen to loads and loads of clubs up and down the country, it is not something which is exclusive to Reading. It does make me laugh when people slag the club off like it is something which only we're getting wrong.
Well done on being proved right, good for you.
by URZZZZ » 29 Aug 2022 10:39
HendoSnowflake RoyalHendo
Not really sure how you can judge how class they were, seeing as they made 1 professional appearance for the club between them.
As with Antonio, they don't become they players they are if they're kept here and play bit parts behind more senior defenders. They've grown as footballers because they've had regular playing time at a lower level and from that experience and development are now at a level where they would be first choice for us.
They don't get that if they stay here.
Sometimes you just have to admit it is the right player at the wrong time.
Because I also saw them play a bunch of youth football.
Antonio is a completely different scenario. He got chances in the first team, and he wasn’t up to it at that time, he came from the lower leagues so was very raw, he was up against quality competition and then we got promoted.
When Dickie and Hyam left, and Cooper and Stacey, we didn't get promoted, we were struggling financially, we kept spending loads on mediocrity and we had holes in the squad.
Take Dickie and Stacey and compare with Holmes and McIntyre for example. The Toms have got a lot of their performances breaking through out of position at fullback. We could easily have offered that route to Dickie or Stacey as RB cover as we had few options there at the time.
We spent millions on Blackett and Illori.
Yes, they got where they are by playing. But there was room for them to play for us.
Fact is, I said it at the time for Dickie, Hyam and Stacey, and I've been proved right on all three cases.
Find it hard to take watching youth football and being able to compare that to mens professional football. The list of players who have looked good at youth level and not made the step up, must be incredibly long. Standouts for Reading off the top of my head:
Kuhl
Kelly
Loader
Barret
Davies
Taylor
There may have been a route for them in the first team, but they would've still been very bit-part players, not playing week in, week out as they were when dropping down a level.
Who knows how that could've impacted on their development, but I would lean more towards them getting regular game time as being a huge contributing factor for where they are now.
Think this will also apply more to defenders than forwards as a young defender, who will naturally make mistakes, is going to be chastised for it at a club looking to progress to the Premier League, see Cooper as an example. There isn't as much pressure on them at a lower level, where a) mistakes may not get punished with as much regularity b) mistakes can be more forgiven.
Managers will pretty much always try to bring in more experienced players than playing un-tried youth players, if they're able to. Obviously there are exceptions to that when you have someone as talented as Olise and it is painfully obvious he is ready to make the step up.
Other thing to note is that this will happen to loads and loads of clubs up and down the country, it is not something which is exclusive to Reading. It does make me laugh when people slag the club off like it is something which only we're getting wrong.
Well done on being proved right, good for you.
by Snowflake Royal » 29 Aug 2022 10:46
NewCorkSethSnowflake RoyalHendo
Not really sure how you can judge how class they were, seeing as they made 1 professional appearance for the club between them.
As with Antonio, they don't become they players they are if they're kept here and play bit parts behind more senior defenders. They've grown as footballers because they've had regular playing time at a lower level and from that experience and development are now at a level where they would be first choice for us.
They don't get that if they stay here.
Sometimes you just have to admit it is the right player at the wrong time.
Because I also saw them play a bunch of youth football.
Antonio is a completely different scenario. He got chances in the first team, and he wasn’t up to it at that time, he came from the lower leagues so was very raw, he was up against quality competition and then we got promoted.
When Dickie and Hyam left, and Cooper and Stacey, we didn't get promoted, we were struggling financially, we kept spending loads on mediocrity and we had holes in the squad.
Take Dickie and Stacey and compare with Holmes and McIntyre for example. The Toms have got a lot of their performances breaking through out of position at fullback. We could easily have offered that route to Dickie or Stacey as RB cover as we had few options there at the time.
We spent millions on Blackett and Illori.
Yes, they got where they are by playing. But there was room for them to play for us.
Fact is, I said it at the time for Dickie, Hyam and Stacey, and I've been proved right on all three cases.
Also in Stacey's case we only had McCleary and Harriott for RW and Harriott was injured I think. That's 2 positions he could have played.
by Snowflake Royal » 29 Aug 2022 10:55
by Hound » 29 Aug 2022 10:56
by Snowflake Royal » 29 Aug 2022 10:59
Hound More with Ian here. There are people at the club whose job it is to recognise potential - it seemed from the outside Stam was happy to see that lot (and Fosu) go. Didn’t take them long to be back up to champ at the very least
We did instead bring in a number of gamble fringe players like Weiser and Gravenberch (pre stam that one though) where we could have used those youth more
You always miss the odd one or two - Sam Smith may be one possibly - but 4 or 5 in one go is more than bad luck
by Hendo » 29 Aug 2022 11:05
Snowflake Royal The point is, it's not hard to give these players a half dozen appearances as a chance to break through.
They won't all make it, they won't all go and then make it back to this level. But if you don't try them you're guaranteed to not find your Richards, Rinomhota, Kelly, McIntyre, Holmes, Obita, Cooper, Hector, Olises who all made substantial appearances and contributions.
Some, like Loader, Antonio etc show they aren’t there and you can then move them on and see if they flourish elsewhere.
The problem is not even trying. Especially when the alternative is getting tens if not hundreds of millions in debt by spending badly on mediocrity with long expensive contracts.
There are so many bench places now, and so many subs permitted, with games so often clearly decided by minute 70 or 80, that its trivially easy to give half a dozen youth players half a dozen cameos across a season.
It's one 10 to 20 minute spell in in about three quarters of your games. And that's better than throwing them all in at once in your 2 cup games with bugger all senior players around them that you're not tryingvto win anyway.
by paultheroyal » 29 Aug 2022 11:19
Snowflake Royal The point is, it's not hard to give these players a half dozen appearances as a chance to break through.
They won't all make it, they won't all go and then make it back to this level. But if you don't try them you're guaranteed to not find your Richards, Rinomhota, Kelly, McIntyre, Holmes, Obita, Cooper, Hector, Olises who all made substantial appearances and contributions.
Some, like Loader, Antonio, Barrett, Taylor etc show they aren’t there and you can then move them on and see if they flourish elsewhere.
The problem is not even trying. Especially when the alternative is getting tens if not hundreds of millions in debt by spending badly on mediocrity with long expensive contracts.
There are so many bench places now, and so many subs permitted, with games so often clearly decided by minute 70 or 80, that its trivially easy to give half a dozen youth players half a dozen cameos across a season.
It's one 10 to 20 minute spell in in about three quarters of your games. And that's better than throwing them all in at once in your 2 cup games with bugger all senior players around them that you're not tryingvto win anyway.
by Nameless » 29 Aug 2022 11:33
by ayjaydee » 29 Aug 2022 12:03
Nameless It is so easy to over simplify this stuff about letting players go.
I know that one of the players being discussed was given exactly the option that a poster is saying he should have had (sign a new contract, be back up to the current senior pro, get cup games, sub appearances) and they opted to leave because they thought they were ready to play 30+ games a season and with the best will in the world we could not promise them that.
The fact that loooking from the outside we might see a scenario that would have kept a player at the club doesn’t mean that was a realistic scenario. A 20 year old player might just not want to wait a couple of years to get the chance of a regular starting place.
We never see the entire picture, or know all the reasons why the club might not keep a player, or the player might chose not to stay. Undoubtably players have gone who would have become useful players here had they stayed, some of those will be bad decisions, some of them will just be the reality that you can’t keep everyone for ever, and some will only look bad in hindsight.
Whether there is any merit at all in people wanting to be ‘right’ is debateable. I could claim every player who leaves the club to be a ‘bad decision’ and then years later only bring up the one or two that hindsight shows to have done well. Doesn’t make me ‘right’ but if it makes someone feel good then fair enough....
by YorkshireRoyal99 » 29 Aug 2022 12:07
by NewCorkSeth » 29 Aug 2022 12:21
Nameless It is so easy to over simplify this stuff about letting players go.
I know that one of the players being discussed was given exactly the option that a poster is saying he should have had (sign a new contract, be back up to the current senior pro, get cup games, sub appearances) and they opted to leave because they thought they were ready to play 30+ games a season and with the best will in the world we could not promise them that.
The fact that loooking from the outside we might see a scenario that would have kept a player at the club doesn’t mean that was a realistic scenario. A 20 year old player might just not want to wait a couple of years to get the chance of a regular starting place.
We never see the entire picture, or know all the reasons why the club might not keep a player, or the player might chose not to stay. Undoubtably players have gone who would have become useful players here had they stayed, some of those will be bad decisions, some of them will just be the reality that you can’t keep everyone for ever, and some will only look bad in hindsight.
Whether there is any merit at all in people wanting to be ‘right’ is debateable. I could claim every player who leaves the club to be a ‘bad decision’ and then years later only bring up the one or two that hindsight shows to have done well. Doesn’t make me ‘right’ but if it makes someone feel good then fair enough....
by Stranded » 29 Aug 2022 12:30
Nameless It is so easy to over simplify this stuff about letting players go.
I know that one of the players being discussed was given exactly the option that a poster is saying he should have had (sign a new contract, be back up to the current senior pro, get cup games, sub appearances) and they opted to leave because they thought they were ready to play 30+ games a season and with the best will in the world we could not promise them that.
The fact that loooking from the outside we might see a scenario that would have kept a player at the club doesn’t mean that was a realistic scenario. A 20 year old player might just not want to wait a couple of years to get the chance of a regular starting place.
We never see the entire picture, or know all the reasons why the club might not keep a player, or the player might chose not to stay. Undoubtably players have gone who would have become useful players here had they stayed, some of those will be bad decisions, some of them will just be the reality that you can’t keep everyone for ever, and some will only look bad in hindsight.
Whether there is any merit at all in people wanting to be ‘right’ is debateable. I could claim every player who leaves the club to be a ‘bad decision’ and then years later only bring up the one or two that hindsight shows to have done well. Doesn’t make me ‘right’ but if it makes someone feel good then fair enough....
by Snowflake Royal » 29 Aug 2022 13:58
HendoSnowflake Royal The point is, it's not hard to give these players a half dozen appearances as a chance to break through.
They won't all make it, they won't all go and then make it back to this level. But if you don't try them you're guaranteed to not find your Richards, Rinomhota, Kelly, McIntyre, Holmes, Obita, Cooper, Hector, Olises who all made substantial appearances and contributions.
Some, like Loader, Antonio etc show they aren’t there and you can then move them on and see if they flourish elsewhere.
The problem is not even trying. Especially when the alternative is getting tens if not hundreds of millions in debt by spending badly on mediocrity with long expensive contracts.
There are so many bench places now, and so many subs permitted, with games so often clearly decided by minute 70 or 80, that its trivially easy to give half a dozen youth players half a dozen cameos across a season.
It's one 10 to 20 minute spell in in about three quarters of your games. And that's better than throwing them all in at once in your 2 cup games with bugger all senior players around them that you're not tryingvto win anyway.
Understand all that, the problem is, playing half a dozen games isn't going to do as much development for the player as going to a L1 or L2 club and playing 30-40 full games a season.
The players you mentioned, could've played 6-10 games throughout the season, done ok, nothing special, maybe dropped the odd clanger, had the odd good game, good cameo - but that isn't necessarily going to be enough to earn them another contract and a starting place in the first XI.
Yes, we should probably have noticed their potential, but they may never had achieved that potential by staying here, and being bit-part players. That potential may have only been able to be achieved by playing a full season or two at a lower, but still competitive level.
Hector is a good example - potential but not really enough to get into the first team and flourish. Goes to Aberdeen, does very well for the time he is there, comes back and straight into the first team and gets a move to Chelsea which sets up the rest of his career.
by Snowflake Royal » 29 Aug 2022 14:02
Nameless It is so easy to over simplify this stuff about letting players go.
I know that one of the players being discussed was given exactly the option that a poster is saying he should have had (sign a new contract, be back up to the current senior pro, get cup games, sub appearances) and they opted to leave because they thought they were ready to play 30+ games a season and with the best will in the world we could not promise them that.
The fact that loooking from the outside we might see a scenario that would have kept a player at the club doesn’t mean that was a realistic scenario. A 20 year old player might just not want to wait a couple of years to get the chance of a regular starting place.
We never see the entire picture, or know all the reasons why the club might not keep a player, or the player might chose not to stay. Undoubtably players have gone who would have become useful players here had they stayed, some of those will be bad decisions, some of them will just be the reality that you can’t keep everyone for ever, and some will only look bad in hindsight.
Whether there is any merit at all in people wanting to be ‘right’ is debateable. I could claim every player who leaves the club to be a ‘bad decision’ and then years later only bring up the one or two that hindsight shows to have done well. Doesn’t make me ‘right’ but if it makes someone feel good then fair enough....
by Nameless » 29 Aug 2022 14:15
Snowflake RoyalNameless It is so easy to over simplify this stuff about letting players go.
I know that one of the players being discussed was given exactly the option that a poster is saying he should have had (sign a new contract, be back up to the current senior pro, get cup games, sub appearances) and they opted to leave because they thought they were ready to play 30+ games a season and with the best will in the world we could not promise them that.
The fact that loooking from the outside we might see a scenario that would have kept a player at the club doesn’t mean that was a realistic scenario. A 20 year old player might just not want to wait a couple of years to get the chance of a regular starting place.
We never see the entire picture, or know all the reasons why the club might not keep a player, or the player might chose not to stay. Undoubtably players have gone who would have become useful players here had they stayed, some of those will be bad decisions, some of them will just be the reality that you can’t keep everyone for ever, and some will only look bad in hindsight.
Whether there is any merit at all in people wanting to be ‘right’ is debateable. I could claim every player who leaves the club to be a ‘bad decision’ and then years later only bring up the one or two that hindsight shows to have done well. Doesn’t make me ‘right’ but if it makes someone feel good then fair enough....
And fine, the odd player will do that. But we're talking about 3/4 all at once. It's clear we weren't doing that as standard, and around that time the pathway to the first team was also not very clear. We were in the middle of a period where our youth break throughs died away.
by Sutekh » 29 Aug 2022 14:20
NewCorkSethHendoSnowflake Royal Because I also saw them play a bunch of youth football.
Antonio is a completely different scenario. He got chances in the first team, and he wasn’t up to it at that time, he came from the lower leagues so was very raw, he was up against quality competition and then we got promoted.
When Dickie and Hyam left, and Cooper and Stacey, we didn't get promoted, we were struggling financially, we kept spending loads on mediocrity and we had holes in the squad.
Take Dickie and Stacey and compare with Holmes and McIntyre for example. The Toms have got a lot of their performances breaking through out of position at fullback. We could easily have offered that route to Dickie or Stacey as RB cover as we had few options there at the time.
We spent millions on Blackett and Illori.
Yes, they got where they are by playing. But there was room for them to play for us.
Fact is, I said it at the time for Dickie, Hyam and Stacey, and I've been proved right on all three cases.
Find it hard to take watching youth football and being able to compare that to mens professional football. The list of players who have looked good at youth level and not made the step up, must be incredibly long. Standouts for Reading off the top of my head:
Kuhl
Kelly
Loader
Barret
Davies
Taylor
There may have been a route for them in the first team, but they would've still been very bit-part players, not playing week in, week out as they were when dropping down a level.
Who knows how that could've impacted on their development, but I would lean more towards them getting regular game time as being a huge contributing factor for where they are now.
Think this will also apply more to defenders than forwards as a young defender, who will naturally make mistakes, is going to be chastised for it at a club looking to progress to the Premier League, see Cooper as an example. There isn't as much pressure on them at a lower level, where a) mistakes may not get punished with as much regularity b) mistakes can be more forgiven.
Managers will pretty much always try to bring in more experienced players than playing un-tried youth players, if they're able to. Obviously there are exceptions to that when you have someone as talented as Olise and it is painfully obvious he is ready to make the step up.
Other thing to note is that this will happen to loads and loads of clubs up and down the country, it is not something which is exclusive to Reading. It does make me laugh when people slag the club off like it is something which only we're getting wrong.
Well done on being proved right, good for you.
Harsh to include Loader, he's at one of the biggest clubs in Europe.
by Mid Sussex Royal » 29 Aug 2022 18:59
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