Squad Watch 2022/23

[Hound]

Yeah youngsters on loan would be the best option to free up some space

Doubt we’ve any wage budget to bring anyone of any quality in mind you

[South Coast Royal]

Reading can not add to their squad in the January window unless players leave first as the club is only allowed a 25 man squad of players with 3 apps or more at Championship (or equiv) level. I believe the 25 is currently comprised of the following players:

1. Lumley
2. Bouzanis
3. Holmes
4. Hutchinson
5. McIntyre
6. Sarr
7. Loum
8. Rahman
9. NGW
10. Hoilett
11. Ejaria
12. Joao
13. Carroll
14. Long
15. Fornah
16. Yiadom
17. Dann
18. Meite
19. Hendrick
20. Ince
21. Mbengue
22. Abrefa
23. Moore
24. Camara
25. Tetek

Paul Ince has already made it clear he wants to re-sign both Carroll and Mbengue when their current deals expire (on 12 and 14 Jan respectively - their last Reading game therefore might be the cup game with Watford or league game at WBA) so presuming that does happen then Reading will not sign anyone in January.

Most likely departures I’d say would be 1) Moore on loan somewhere but given his serious injury and lack of game time that may well be unlikely and 2) Andy Carroll not re-signing though he is also reported as saying he’s enjoying his time here and would like to stay. Can’t see anyone making a move for other players, esp those out of contract in the summer. On top of that PI has stated he does not want to sell Tom Ince or Lucas Joao.

So the best thing that we can probably hope for from January might simply be the revitalisations of Liam Moore and Ove Ejaria (and PI has intimated he wants Ovie fit again as his son, Tom, is a “winger not a midfielder” and wants the option that Ovie would bring in that area).

Abrefa, Camara and Tetek out on loan somewhere?
We seem to have a fair amount in terms of numbers for their positions so one or more of those going out on loan frees up the option of bringing in others doesn't it?

Would agree but previously there doesn’t seem to have been much will or interest from either Reading or other clubs in getting season/half season loans set up for “leading” outfield youngsters.

Personally I’d hope something can be worked out as decent loans for those players could only improve them in my opinion.

Agreed.

The likes of a Nathan Ake ,Billy Gilmour ,Connor Gallagher, Mason Mount, Trevor Chalobah,Emi Martinez etc. added something to the clubs that they joined before going on to better things.
What about that wonderkid who everybody wanted and went to Chelsea recently ?

[Snowflake Royal]

Not sure I agree we're particularly well covered in Tetek's position.

Loum, Hendrick and Fornah where we play 3, plus Hutch who also plays CB and Ejaria who has spent most of his time on the left, not in midfield, and has had discipline and mega form issues. Plus Ince who is much better elsewhere, and McIntyre and Moore as limited outside options.

So really only 3 and two halves genuine contenders.

But agree on Camara... there's a big talent there currently not close or well suited to our current first XI, so getting him proper game time is needed. But ideally in a decent team on decent pitches.

I think Abrefa should be closer to the first XI than he appears with Yiadom often deputising at RCB, Hoilett a winger and Mbengue poor at WB. But again, would like to see him get games.

If only we made an effort in the cups, fitness dependent of course, these players could get an easy 4-5 games in them to help transition into the side, plus subs etc.

[Sutekh]

Not sure I agree we're particularly well covered in Tetek's position.

Loum, Hendrick and Fornah where we play 3, plus Hutch who also plays CB and Ejaria who has spent most of his time on the left, not in midfield, and has had discipline and mega form issues. Plus Ince who is much better elsewhere, and McIntyre and Moore as limited outside options.

So really only 3 and two halves genuine contenders.

But agree on Camara... there's a big talent there currently not close or well suited to our current first XI, so getting him proper game time is needed. But ideally in a decent team on decent pitches.

I think Abrefa should be closer to the first XI than he appears with Yiadom often deputising at RCB, Hoilett a winger and Mbengue poor at WB. But again, would like to see him get games.

If only we made an effort in the cups, fitness dependent of course, these players could get an easy 4-5 games in them to help transition into the side, plus subs etc.

And that summary gets worse with Fornah apparently expected to be out until around the visit of Rotherham.

Think Abrefa should actually get a bit more game time than he does, certainly would help alleviate the lack of rest for Hoilett as well as give options in what might become a bit of a problem area with Yiadom seemingly being preferred as a centre back.

But all that said the club are doing very decently at the moment with all the problems they have with ffp and injuries so perhaps we shouldn’t worry too much.

[Sutekh]

Updated:

Name (age at expiry of current permanent contract)

Contracted until 30 June 2023

1. Scott Dann (36)
2. Nesta Guinness-Walker (23)
3. Junior Hoilett (33)
4. Lucas Joao (29)
5. Shane Long (36)
6. Amadou Mbengue (21) - contract has option to extend for further year(s)
7. Yakou Méïté (27)
8. Liam Moore (30)
9. Dejan Tetek (20)

Loan players

1. Joe Lumley (28) - (currently contracted to Middlesbrough until 30 June 2023)
2. Tyrese Fornah (24) - (currently contracted to Forest until 30 June 2024)
3. Jeff Hendrick (32) - (currently contracted to Newcastle until 30 June 2024)
4. Mamadou Loum (27) - (currently contracted to Porto until 30 June 2024)
5. Baba Rahman (29) - (currently contracted to Chelsea until 30 June 2024)

Contracted until 30 June 2024

1. Kelvin Abrefa (20)
2. Femi Azeez (23)
3. Andy Carroll (35)
4. Kelvin Ehibhatiomhan (21)
5. Ovie Ejaria (26)
6. Sam Hutchinson (34)
7. Tom McIntyre (25)
8. George Puscas (28) (currently on loan at Genoa until June 2023)

Contracted until 30 June 2025

1. Dean Bouzanis (34)
2. Mamadi Camará (21)
3. Tom Holmes (25)
4. Tom Ince (33)
5. Andy Yiadom (33)

Contracted until 30 June 2026

1. Mouhamadou-Naby Sarr (32)

Other leading youngsters are thought to be contracted as follows:

Name - position - (age at expiry) - expiry date

1. Nelson Abbey - Central Defender - (21) - 30 June 2024
2. Jokull Andresson - Goalkeeper - (22) - 30 June 2024
3. Coniah Boyce-Clarke - Goalkeeper - (20) - 30 June 2023
4. John Clarke - Left Back - (19) - June 2023
5. Jamari Clarke - Striker - (20) - 30 June 2023
6. Michael Craig - Defensive Midfielder - (20) - 30 June 2023
7. Jerial Dorsett - Central Defender - (20) - 30 June 2023 (currently on loan at Kilmarnock)
8. Louie Holzman - Central Defender - (20) - 30 June 2023
9. Kian Leavy - Central Midfielder - (21) - 30 June 2023
10. Nahum Melvin-Lambert - Striker - (20) - 30 June 2023
11. Claudio Osorio - Attacking Midfielder - (20) - 30 June 2023
12. Michael Stickland - Central Defender - (19) - 30 June 2023

Believe the following is the actual current 25 man squad that the FL say Reading have and shows the club currently have no free spaces which fits in with what the club say. If the club want to bring anyone in this month then first at least 1 from the list below has to depart either permanently or on loan.

1. Abrefa
2. Azeez
3. Bouzanis
4. Camara
5. Carroll
6. Dann
7. Ejaria
8. Fornah
9. Hendrick
10. Hoilett
11. Holmes
12. Hutchinson
13. Ince
14. Joao
15. Long
16. Loum
17. Lumley
18. McIntyre
19. Mbengue
20. Meite
21. Moore
22. Rahman
23. Sarr
24. Tetek
25. Yiadom

[Broxroyal]

Believe the following is the actual current 25 man squad that the FL say Reading have and shows the club currently have no free spaces which fits in with what the club say. If the club want to bring anyone in this month then first at least 1 from the list below has to depart either permanently or on loan.

1. Abrefa
2. Azeez
3. Bouzanis
4. Camara
5. Carroll
6. Dann
7. Ejaria
8. Fornah
9. Hendrick
10. Hoilett
11. Holmes
12. Hutchinson
13. Ince
14. Joao
15. Long
16. Loum
17. Lumley
18. McIntyre
19. Mbengue
20. Meite
21. Moore
22. Rahman
23. Sarr
24. Tetek
25. Yiadom

[/quote]

NGW not on that list. Suspect Camara is the one that shouldn't be.

[Sutekh]

Believe the following is the actual current 25 man squad that the FL say Reading have and shows the club currently have no free spaces which fits in with what the club say. If the club want to bring anyone in this month then first at least 1 from the list below has to depart either permanently or on loan.

1. Abrefa
2. Azeez
3. Bouzanis
4. Camara
5. Carroll
6. Dann
7. Ejaria
8. Fornah
9. Hendrick
10. Hoilett
11. Holmes
12. Hutchinson
13. Ince
14. Joao
15. Long
16. Loum
17. Lumley
18. McIntyre
19. Mbengue
20. Meite
21. Moore
22. Rahman
23. Sarr
24. Tetek
25. Yiadom

NGW not on that list. Suspect Camara is the one that shouldn't be.

NGW is not listed as I believe the criteria for the 25 is 3 apps at Championship level and above (or equivalent leagues) at the start of the season and he had only previously played for the Met Police and Wimbledon before joining.

[Snowflake Royal]

Believe the following is the actual current 25 man squad that the FL say Reading have and shows the club currently have no free spaces which fits in with what the club say. If the club want to bring anyone in this month then first at least 1 from the list below has to depart either permanently or on loan.

1. Abrefa
2. Azeez
3. Bouzanis
4. Camara
5. Carroll
6. Dann
7. Ejaria
8. Fornah
9. Hendrick
10. Hoilett
11. Holmes
12. Hutchinson
13. Ince
14. Joao
15. Long
16. Loum
17. Lumley
18. McIntyre
19. Mbengue
20. Meite
21. Moore
22. Rahman
23. Sarr
24. Tetek
25. Yiadom

NGW not on that list. Suspect Camara is the one that shouldn't be.

NGW is not listed as I believe the criteria for the 25 is 3 apps at Championship level and above (or equivalent leagues) at the start of the season and he had only previously played for the Met Police and Wimbledon before joining.

All signings count though don't they?

[Nameless]

Believe the following is the actual current 25 man squad that the FL say Reading have and shows the club currently have no free spaces which fits in with what the club say. If the club want to bring anyone in this month then first at least 1 from the list below has to depart either permanently or on loan.

1. Abrefa
2. Azeez
3. Bouzanis
4. Camara
5. Carroll
6. Dann
7. Ejaria
8. Fornah
9. Hendrick
10. Hoilett
11. Holmes
12. Hutchinson
13. Ince
14. Joao
15. Long
16. Loum
17. Lumley
18. McIntyre
19. Mbengue
20. Meite
21. Moore
22. Rahman
23. Sarr
24. Tetek
25. Yiadom

NGW not on that list. Suspect Camara is the one that shouldn't be.

NGW is not listed as I believe the criteria for the 25 is 3 apps at Championship level and above (or equivalent leagues) at the start of the season and he had only previously played for the Met Police and Wimbledon before joining.

All signings count though don't they?

It’s all set out in the Agreed Decision. I must admit I originally thought it was just relating to U21 players but the definition of a ‘permitted player’ only mentions appearances at this level or higher. So Mbengue counts because he played a few times for Metz, Fornah counts because he played 1 game for Forest and a few in Portugal div 2. We are allowed 25 ‘permitted players’ not just a squad of 25….

[Vision]

Apologies if this has been discussed before but where does Kelvin E sit in this equation.

Has he not played enough games to be included in our 25? Have we not played him as much (particularly at the start of the season) because we didn't want him included.

Also. We removed Clarke from the squad and replaced him with Moore as part of the permitted 25 because of a season ending injury. . If for example Hutchinson's injury was season ending, would we be permitted to do the same?

[Sutekh]

Apologies if this has been discussed before but where does Kelvin E sit in this equation.

Has he not played enough games to be included in our 25? Have we not played him as much (particularly at the start of the season) because we didn't want him included.

Also. We removed Clarke from the squad and replaced him with Moore as part of the permitted 25 because of a season ending injury. . If for example Hutchinson's injury was season ending, would we be permitted to do the same?

He wouldn’t qualify in the permitted 25 as not enough appearances. Think that although clubs have a squad of 25 it’s still ok to play academy youngsters outside of that 25 if they didn’t qualify (can anyone confirm?) as Reading have had the likes of Leavy, Clarke, Camara, CBC etc. on the bench, and in some cases getting a bit of game time, during league games, particularly earlier in the season. It’s all a bit mystifying really as neither the club nor the FL have confirmed the 25 so the above list is no more than a “best guess” that seems to fit the criteria.

[Snowflake Royal]

Apologies if this has been discussed before but where does Kelvin E sit in this equation.

Has he not played enough games to be included in our 25? Have we not played him as much (particularly at the start of the season) because we didn't want him included.

Also. We removed Clarke from the squad and replaced him with Moore as part of the permitted 25 because of a season ending injury. . If for example Hutchinson's injury was season ending, would we be permitted to do the same?

He wouldn’t qualify in the permitted 25 as not enough appearances. Think that although clubs have a squad of 25 it’s still ok to play academy youngsters outside of that 25 if they didn’t qualify (can anyone confirm?) as Reading have had the likes of Leavy, Clarke, Camara, CBC etc. on the bench, and in some cases getting a bit of game time, during league games, particularly earlier in the season. It’s all a bit mystifying really as neither the club nor the FL have confirmed the 25 so the above list is no more than a “best guess” that seems to fit the criteria.

So, of the younger players appearances are:

Jahmari Clarke 0(12)
Camara 0(8)
Abrefa 0(5)
Ehibhatiomhan 0(3)
John Clarke 0(3)
Craig 0(2)
Abbey 0(1)
Leavy 0(0)
CBC 0(0)

[The Royal Forester]

I think that I have read somewhere that it is the number of STARTS, that makes the criteria, presumably only those made before the start of the season, otherwise if a youngster starts a few times during a season, it could put us over the 25 limit.

[Snowflake Royal]

Yeah, would assume there's a cut off... whether that resets in January or not, unsure. Probably not?

[Nameless]

The agreement between us and the EFL is a pretty poor document with stuff that is unclear or undefined.
Most stuff depends on the date of the agreement and the definition of ‘permitted players’ has two elements
- not started 3 or more games at this or equivalent level
- was not registered at the time of the agreement
However it’s not clear whether there is an ‘and’ or an ‘or’ linking the two clauses.
There is no explanation of whether the 3 starts is only based on 21/11/21. If not a player could have played 50 games for us by now and still not be a ‘permitted’ player if they had been on our books before the agreement but not started 3 games.
I don’t see how NGW is not a permitted player as he signed after the agreement date on a full contract.

[Snowflake Royal]

The agreement between us and the EFL is a pretty poor document with stuff that is unclear or undefined.
Most stuff depends on the date of the agreement and the definition of ‘permitted players’ has two elements
- not started 3 or more games at this or equivalent level
- was not registered at the time of the agreement
However it’s not clear whether there is an ‘and’ or an ‘or’ linking the two clauses.
There is no explanation of whether the 3 starts is only based on 21/11/21. If not a player could have played 50 games for us by now and still not be a ‘permitted’ player if they had been on our books before the agreement but not started 3 games.
I don’t see how NGW is not a permitted player as he signed after the agreement date on a full contract.

I would say that generally speaking if it is an 'and' it has to be explicit, otherwise its automatically separate stipulations.

Although yeah, if its talking about at the time the agreement with no provisions about reset each season/transfer window, that's not very helpful.

[3points]

The key is the in the same league or above. So, Long and Carroll clearly have played in the Prem. Hutch and Sarr played plenty of Champ football. however, both NGW and Bouzanis may not make the criteria as their careers have been at lower league level. I assume Mbengue’s games in France make him a permitted player.

And the starts have to be in league football, and not cup competitions, which means a lot of our academy players didn’t make the definition of 3 starts before the beginning of the season.

[Hound]

Assuming there is quite a lot of discussion with the epl about all this stuff that isn’t published

[Stranded]

The key is the in the same league or above. So, Long and Carroll clearly have played in the Prem. Hutch and Sarr played plenty of Champ football. however, both NGW and Bouzanis may not make the criteria as their careers have been at lower league level. I assume Mbengue’s games in France make him a permitted player.

And the starts have to be in league football, and not cup competitions, which means a lot of our academy players didn’t make the definition of 3 starts before the beginning of the season.

Yes in terms of starts they are not permitted but they signed after the agreement came into force so they do.

I find it easiest to look at the "extremes" in these circumstances to see what the actual agreement most likely is. Squad size is limited to 25 permitted players, if new signings don't count then we could have sold any permitted players and just gone and signed 30 plus players from lower leagues/abroad and had a squad as big as we liked within the wages limits. This would arguably be a way around the regulations, so making any signing for the first team a permitted player makes sense.

That is why:

a) Liam Moore has taken John Clarke's squad place (Clarke has not started 3 Champ games but still was a permitted player)
b) we signed a handful of players who we made clear were only eligible for the U23s this year, else they would have also been classed as a permitted player - though the rules allow them to still play cup games without that counting towards the squad.

So the 25 players is made up of 2 distinct groups - players at the club prior to the agreement who meet the apps criteria and those who joined and declared eligible for the first team regardless of number of apps at any level.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

The key is the in the same league or above. So, Long and Carroll clearly have played in the Prem. Hutch and Sarr played plenty of Champ football. however, both NGW and Bouzanis may not make the criteria as their careers have been at lower league level. I assume Mbengue’s games in France make him a permitted player.

And the starts have to be in league football, and not cup competitions, which means a lot of our academy players didn’t make the definition of 3 starts before the beginning of the season.

Yes in terms of starts they are not permitted but they signed after the agreement came into force so they do.

I find it easiest to look at the "extremes" in these circumstances to see what the actual agreement most likely is. Squad size is limited to 25 permitted players, if new signings don't count then we could have sold any permitted players and just gone and signed 30 plus players from lower leagues/abroad and had a squad as big as we liked within the wages limits. This would arguably be a way around the regulations, so making any signing for the first team a permitted player makes sense.

That is why:

a) Liam Moore has taken John Clarke's squad place (Clarke has not started 3 Champ games but still was a permitted player)
b) we signed a handful of players who we made clear were only eligible for the U23s this year, else they would have also been classed as a permitted player - though the rules allow them to still play cup games without that counting towards the squad.

So the 25 players is made up of 2 distinct groups - players at the club prior to the agreement who meet the apps criteria and those who joined and declared eligible for the first team regardless of number of apps at any level.

Just out of interest, if we had an academy player who started 3 league games during the season, would they then be part of our 25-man squad?

For instance, we have a 25-man squad as it is now, but if John Clarke happened to make 3 league starts between now and the end of the season, would that make him part of the permitted players and then make it 26? Which we can't have? Just curious that's all.