Opposition fans back from the game - 24/25 page 225 onwards

[From Despair To Where?]

I remember a game that was on a Sunday pre-lunchtime for Sky, who then decided not to televise it because of the threat of violence (!) - and then it stayed as a Sunday! Seem to remember a terrible drab 0-0 on a grey, cold, miserable day.

May be completely wrong, though.

Doesn't seem to be any 0-0's here - https://www.royals.org/history/Oxford

Although does look like there was a 1-2 defeat at Madejski in addition to the 4-3 win, which has obviously slipped all of our minds.

That 2-1 defeat is the one - 7th November 1999 was a Sunday. It wasn't a 0-0, it just felt like it in my memory because it was a thoroughly depressing day with nothing to remember positively from it. The reason I remember it is that I had my 4-year-old daughter with me and she slept all the way through the whole 90 minutes - which was absolutely the most sensible thing to do.

James Lambert played for the Pox that day.

[The Royal Forester]

Anyone over the age of 50 knows the rivalry. To anyone below 30, Oxford are just another local lower league club like Wycombe, or Swindon come to that. It’s nearly 20 years since we last played Oxford, a period where we have had two promotions to the top flight as champions and have spent an unbroken period in the top two divisions while they have fumbled around in non-league and the lower leagues.

What must really piss off their older fans is that anyone under the age of 25 would consider Reading a second tier club these days, and Oxford a third/fourth tier club, when 35-40 years ago it would’ve been the opposite.

The comment about seeing other bigger more glamorous clubs’ shirts around town, presumably if I went to Oxford city centre all the kids would be wearing Oxford shirts and not Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs tops?

Let’s make sure we stay up and keep trips to Oxford and Swindon as rare visits for cup games.

Going further back they were seen as some non-league club called Headington United that kept on winning the Southern League (Conference) but with no promotion to the English professional structure available.
Then in 1963 (?) Accrington dropped out and they were allowed in.

In the space of a few years they stormed past us and not only reached the top level way before us but won a League Cup so they could well argue that they are a more successful club than us.
Our old manager Maurice Evans (along with Jim Smith) can claim much credit for their success but with such a small ground and support it couldn't be maintained, a bit like Wimbledon and probably would be the case now with Bournemouth if they didn't have rich Russian and then American benefactors although they will surely get hit with FFP penalties for buying promotion again (fined £9 million when they were promoted previously).

My in-laws were Oxford fans living just two roads away from the old ground in Headington and used to follow them everywhere in their Southern League days and then to some extent later.
F-I-L had a soft spot for Reading as he used to bike over to visit relatives in even earlier days and watch Reading play so there was no great rivalry in the family (our son was even born in Oxford) although I do confess to a bit of jealousy when they came into the League and did so well.
Nowadays I don't care one way or another apart from feeling a bit for a nephew who is a long-standing fan of theirs.

I don't think Accrington Stanley "dropped out". The way I remember Oxfo*d joining the league, (1962) is that after Accrington Stanley finished bottom of D4, Oxford gained more votes from other clubs, as at that time the club that finished bottom had to face a vote to stay in. If I remember correctly, but may be wrong, the only other club to be voted out were Gateshead in 1960 to be replaced by Peterborough United. Oxford got lucky with the vote probably because that had a good cup run or two, whereas Gateshead were too far north. I still remember that was the season Tappin's coaches were never seen outside Elm Park again, presumably changing their route to Headington.

[Ark Royal]

Anyone over the age of 50 knows the rivalry. To anyone below 30, Oxford are just another local lower league club like Wycombe, or Swindon come to that. It’s nearly 20 years since we last played Oxford, a period where we have had two promotions to the top flight as champions and have spent an unbroken period in the top two divisions while they have fumbled around in non-league and the lower leagues.

What must really piss off their older fans is that anyone under the age of 25 would consider Reading a second tier club these days, and Oxford a third/fourth tier club, when 35-40 years ago it would’ve been the opposite.

The comment about seeing other bigger more glamorous clubs’ shirts around town, presumably if I went to Oxford city centre all the kids would be wearing Oxford shirts and not Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs tops?

Let’s make sure we stay up and keep trips to Oxford and Swindon as rare visits for cup games.

Going further back they were seen as some non-league club called Headington United that kept on winning the Southern League (Conference) but with no promotion to the English professional structure available.
Then in 1963 (?) Accrington dropped out and they were allowed in.

In the space of a few years they stormed past us and not only reached the top level way before us but won a League Cup so they could well argue that they are a more successful club than us.
Our old manager Maurice Evans (along with Jim Smith) can claim much credit for their success but with such a small ground and support it couldn't be maintained, a bit like Wimbledon and probably would be the case now with Bournemouth if they didn't have rich Russian and then American benefactors although they will surely get hit with FFP penalties for buying promotion again (fined £9 million when they were promoted previously).

My in-laws were Oxford fans living just two roads away from the old ground in Headington and used to follow them everywhere in their Southern League days and then to some extent later.
F-I-L had a soft spot for Reading as he used to bike over to visit relatives in even earlier days and watch Reading play so there was no great rivalry in the family (our son was even born in Oxford) although I do confess to a bit of jealousy when they came into the League and did so well.
Nowadays I don't care one way or another apart from feeling a bit for a nephew who is a long-standing fan of theirs.

I don't think Accrington Stanley "dropped out". The way I remember Oxfo*d joining the league, (1962) is that after Accrington Stanley finished bottom of D4, Oxford gained more votes from other clubs, as at that time the club that finished bottom had to face a vote to stay in. If I remember correctly, but may be wrong, the only other club to be voted out were Gateshead in 1960 to be replaced by Peterborough United. Oxford got lucky with the vote probably because that had a good cup run or two, whereas Gateshead were too far north. I still remember that was the season Tappin's coaches were never seen outside Elm Park again, presumably changing their route to Headington.

Accrington Stanley resigned from the Football League in March 1962, so the reelection process was not an option. After the Fourth Division was created in 1958, the bottom four clubs had to apply for reelection and it was not always the case that the team that finished 24th was voted out.

[LUX]

I think the term was "have to seek re-election"

In the 70's I think Southport, Workington, Barrow and Bradford PA all fell through that trap door.

[The Royal Forester]

I'm wrong on more than one count then. At least I can blame it on age.

[Sutekh]

Going further back they were seen as some non-league club called Headington United that kept on winning the Southern League (Conference) but with no promotion to the English professional structure available.
Then in 1963 (?) Accrington dropped out and they were allowed in.

In the space of a few years they stormed past us and not only reached the top level way before us but won a League Cup so they could well argue that they are a more successful club than us.
Our old manager Maurice Evans (along with Jim Smith) can claim much credit for their success but with such a small ground and support it couldn't be maintained, a bit like Wimbledon and probably would be the case now with Bournemouth if they didn't have rich Russian and then American benefactors although they will surely get hit with FFP penalties for buying promotion again (fined £9 million when they were promoted previously).

My in-laws were Oxford fans living just two roads away from the old ground in Headington and used to follow them everywhere in their Southern League days and then to some extent later.
F-I-L had a soft spot for Reading as he used to bike over to visit relatives in even earlier days and watch Reading play so there was no great rivalry in the family (our son was even born in Oxford) although I do confess to a bit of jealousy when they came into the League and did so well.
Nowadays I don't care one way or another apart from feeling a bit for a nephew who is a long-standing fan of theirs.

I don't think Accrington Stanley "dropped out". The way I remember Oxfo*d joining the league, (1962) is that after Accrington Stanley finished bottom of D4, Oxford gained more votes from other clubs, as at that time the club that finished bottom had to face a vote to stay in. If I remember correctly, but may be wrong, the only other club to be voted out were Gateshead in 1960 to be replaced by Peterborough United. Oxford got lucky with the vote probably because that had a good cup run or two, whereas Gateshead were too far north. I still remember that was the season Tappin's coaches were never seen outside Elm Park again, presumably changing their route to Headington.

Accrington Stanley resigned from the Football League in March 1962, so the reelection process was not an option. After the Fourth Division was created in 1958, the bottom four clubs had to apply for reelection and it was not always the case that the team that finished 24th was voted out.

And usually that re-election process was a closed shop with none of the turkeys voting for Xmas. Only those kicked out are likely to have been because they were back time and time again and/or were an awkward outpost nobody else wanted to be bothered to travel to.

[tmesis]

A full history of it all....

http://www.nonleaguematters.co.uk/forum ... tt_id=3506

[JedMaxwell]

All this Oxford guff reminds me of a Brighton fan who used to work at the same company as me. He found out I was a Reading fan when I started and sought me out, to tell me Reading were tinpot and Brighton didn't care about us at all. He then proceeded to moan about how we stole Steve Coppell and were bankrolled by a mad old billionaire, but also that Brighton didn't care about us because we were so irrelevant. It was very odd.

When we played a company 5-a-side and he turned up in a full Brighton kit with his name on the back. He was in his mid-30s. In fairness to him he said his wife and kids got him the kit and it was his only football gear, so I won't judge, but he did look like a complete fool.

Turns out in the end he was actually quite a good colleague and that's the end of this anecdote.

[windermereROYAL]

All this Oxford guff reminds me of a Brighton fan who used to work at the same company as me. He found out I was a Reading fan when I started and sought me out, to tell me Reading were tinpot and Brighton didn't care about us at all. He then proceeded to moan about how we stole Steve Coppell and were bankrolled by a mad old billionaire, but also that Brighton didn't care about us because we were so irrelevant. It was very odd.

When we played a company 5-a-side and he turned up in a full Brighton kit with his name on the back. He was in his mid-30s. In fairness to him he said his wife and kids got him the kit and it was his only football gear, so I won't judge, but he did look like a complete fool.

Turns out in the end he was actually quite a good colleague and that's the end of this anecdote.

I`ve always found it strange for fans that don`t care about us and find us irrelevant always seem to find time to tell us so.

[LUX]

Oxford> Brighton.

not on the pitch at the moment, obvs.

[blythspartan]

Personally, I can see why other fans think we’re a bunch of plastics. I enjoy going to away games more than home games and we’re normally pretty vocal tbf. However, we don’t travel in large numbers unlike some some other teams. My adopted second team Chesterfield took around a 1000 up to Gateshead on a Tuesday night and their home and away support is terrific.

I was told by one of our own supporters at the SCL that I was being too loud for him and his wife. I don’t swear or anything but I like to be vocal. That to me sums up some of our fans.

[Stranded]

Personally, I can see why other fans think we’re a bunch of plastics. I enjoy going to away games more than home games and we’re normally pretty vocal tbf. However, we don’t travel in large numbers unlike some some other teams. My adopted second team Chesterfield took around a 1000 up to Gateshead on a Tuesday night and their home and away support is terrific.

I was told by one of our own supporters at the SCL that I was being too loud for him and his wife. I don’t swear or anything but I like to be vocal. That to me sums up some of our fans.

We are like about 90% of clubs especially those who historically have been a lower league side.

We have a small hardcore - would say it's about 8 to 10K and probably take around 10% of that away most games - however, when we are doing well the number of fans increases both home and away. That may be "plastic" but it is just the reality for the vast majority of clubs.

The issue is excaserbated by our location, because whilst we, on paper, have a large catchment area, Reading as a town is transient as mentioned and also even a Reading born kid, from a Reading family may have parents/grandparents that are Chelsea (or other London club) fans - so when they begin to show an interest in football, unless the club are actually doing well, they are likely to be taken up to London to get their first taste of live football - making it harder to grow the core fanbase.

It is what it is, I personally like being a fan of a "smaller" club as whilst it is often hard going, it is more enjoyable that worrying if my big club are going to finish 4th or 5th in the PL.

[Hound]

Guess the hard thing with such a big catchment area and the demographic of fan is we could possibly fill 40k if we were fairly successful for a sustained period in the prem but struggle to make 12k if we’re doing crap in the champ

[Dirk Gently]

Guess the hard thing with such a big catchment area and the demographic of fan is we could possibly fill 40k if we were fairly successful for a sustained period in the prem but struggle to make 12k if we’re doing crap in the champ

'Greed. And that's the legacy of not having a long-term tradition of mass-support like many other clubs do - and especially those in traditionally industrial areas. All the fancy marketing in the world won't change that.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

Personally, I can see why other fans think we’re a bunch of plastics. I enjoy going to away games more than home games and we’re normally pretty vocal tbf. However, we don’t travel in large numbers unlike some some other teams. My adopted second team Chesterfield took around a 1000 up to Gateshead on a Tuesday night and their home and away support is terrific.

I was told by one of our own supporters at the SCL that I was being too loud for him and his wife. I don’t swear or anything but I like to be vocal. That to me sums up some of our fans.

I can relate to this. Obviously not all fans are the same, but I met a fan who lived in Batley when going to Sheff Wednesday away a few years ago (the 2-0 win on Friday night in the PO season) and he proceeded to call a lot of the fans "doylums". I thought at the time it might have just been the proverbial Yorkshire taking the miccy out of the southerners.

I was once told by a fan away at Preston (the 3-0 away defeat in the same season as above) to quieten down because I was being too loud and I wasn't being a good fan because I wasn't being "supportive". Baring in mind we were 3-0 down after about 50 minutes or something and were terrible all around on the day. If memory serves, I don't think we were in the form of our lives at the time and we were battling to stay in the PO places with said game against Sheffield Wednesday approaching as well as PO rivals Leeds at home.

This fan said "would you not be happy if we finished 7th this season?" to which I told him to oxf*rd off no I wouldn't be happy finishing 7th considering we were in the PO's all season. He looked at me as if I was being unreasonable (my language wasn't great but that wasn't the point). If this happens to be anyone on here (if you'd even remember that is), you're the "doylum" that said fan was referring to.

[Stranded]

Guess the hard thing with such a big catchment area and the demographic of fan is we could possibly fill 40k if we were fairly successful for a sustained period in the prem but struggle to make 12k if we’re doing crap in the champ

'Greed. And that's the legacy of not having a long-term tradition of mass-support like many other clubs do - and especially those in traditionally industrial areas. All the fancy marketing in the world won't change that.

Quite - tradition of getting mass-support generally comes from a club having been successful 60-100 years ago and being in a town that people didn't really move from - supporting then got handed down from generation to generation.

With us, Reading was a relatively small market town with a club that was just happy existing in the lower reaches of football, with little to no sustained periods of success - we were in Divison 3 (S) or D3 from 1931/32 through to 70/71 and only then left the division through the trapdoor, spending all but 1 year of the rest of the 70s in the 4th division - so really no chance for the club to build up a bigger fanbase both locally and from further afield as clubs who were more successful then (even if less so now) managed to build.

Fanbases can still be built through prolonged success but as that wasn't achieved at the time of our grandfathers or great-grandfathers, any club building a fanbase this century will be seen as plastic - and with so much more option in terms of free time and access to football, these newer fanbases are also much more fragile than those built many decades ago (and even these can be fragile).

[Dirk Gently]

Guess the hard thing with such a big catchment area and the demographic of fan is we could possibly fill 40k if we were fairly successful for a sustained period in the prem but struggle to make 12k if we’re doing crap in the champ

'Greed. And that's the legacy of not having a long-term tradition of mass-support like many other clubs do - and especially those in traditionally industrial areas. All the fancy marketing in the world won't change that.

Quite - tradition of getting mass-support generally comes from a club having been successful 60-100 years ago and being in a town that people didn't really move from - supporting then got handed down from generation to generation.

With us, Reading was a relatively small market town with a club that was just happy existing in the lower reaches of football, with little to no sustained periods of success - we were in Divison 3 (S) or D3 from 1931/32 through to 70/71 and only then left the division through the trapdoor, spending all but 1 year of the rest of the 70s in the 4th division - so really no chance for the club to build up a bigger fanbase both locally and from further afield as clubs who were more successful then (even if less so now) managed to build.

Fanbases can still be built through prolonged success but as that wasn't achieved at the time of our grandfathers or great-grandfathers, any club building a fanbase this century will be seen as plastic - and with so much more option in terms of free time and access to football, these newer fanbases are also much more fragile than those built many decades ago (and even these can be fragile).

Just to add to this, all of the surveys about why people support a club or what made them first come to matches consistently show that for about 70% of people it's related to (mostly) family or (to a lesser extent) friends - "my dad took me", "we've always gone together", "it was my grandad's team" or something along those lines.

You can't replicate that without having large-scale support for at least a generation, and really a lot longer - and this is the sort of core-support that sticks to a club regardless of how they're doing or playing. For everyone else coming to the football is a leisure activity - a choice at the time, competing against lots of other potential things they could do, so a lot less "sticky" and dependable.

[tmesis]

Football fans also display all the traits of class snobbery.

Just as many working class types despise those who've 'moved up in the world', our former lower division peers hate the fact that we aren't a lower division club any more.

And just as middle class snobs hate the once working class family made good that moved in over the road, tradtional championship level clubs wish we would go back 'where we belong'

[YorkshireRoyal99]

Football fans also display all the traits of class snobbery.

Just as many working class types despise those who've 'moved up in the world', our former lower division peers hate the fact that we aren't a lower division club any more.

And just as middle class snobs hate the once working class family made good that moved in over the road, tradtional championship level clubs wish we would go back 'where we belong'

Yeah that's true, fanbase is all based on historical numbers before and people judge club sizes on history, but current reputation doesn't seem to account for as much as what history does. So even though Man City and PSG are two of the most reputable clubs in the world at the moment, some people don't see them "as big a club" as others in Europe who have had history, such as Aston Villa or St Etienne.

[Dirk Gently]

The views on what are "big" and "small" clubs and their "rightful places" in the league were set when football journalists were growing up - i.e. the 70s & 80s.

So Notts Forest and Derby are still "big clubs" and the likes of Reading and Wigan will always be lower-division upstarts.