The dedicated Chris Wilder thread

[RoyalBlue]

That's quite interesting. If you'd asked me to rank them without looking, then of the managers I've seen I'd have put Bullivant easily at the bottom. Even though Burns was very disappointing, I (incorrectly it seems) remember him as being a slight improvement.

First season in L1(eqiuv) he probably was, finishing about 10th/11th. But we finished dreadfully under him in Champ(equiv) and were dreadful under him.that second L1 season with Pards having to come in.

I'm constantly amazed how well Stam features, given how utterly awful we were at the end of his tenure.

And Paunovic is really saved by Bowen's good summer work and that first couple of months.

I still can't believe that's even a genuine thought. Do you honestly believe this or do you just not like Paunovic that much?

Agreed. Paunovic did OK for a while because, unlike Ince, he knew how to boost players' self-confidence and self-belief and create a feeling of unity across the squad and club.

[ReadingGlasses]

Looking back on the most recent managers, there's seems to be a clear pattern of them starting well and then struggling once a new season starts. Stam, Clement, Gomes, Paunovic and Ince all did either a good job, or at least did what was needed, in their first season and then fell off a cliff in the second. Bowen didn't get the chance to see if the pattern would apply to him as well.

Who was the last manager who started badly, and then significantly improved? Maybe Adkins. Coppell perhaps. I suppose managers don't often get the chance now to improve from a bad start, they'd just get fired before they could recover.

[Hound]

First season in L1(eqiuv) he probably was, finishing about 10th/11th. But we finished dreadfully under him in Champ(equiv) and were dreadful under him.that second L1 season with Pards having to come in.

I'm constantly amazed how well Stam features, given how utterly awful we were at the end of his tenure.

And Paunovic is really saved by Bowen's good summer work and that first couple of months.

I still can't believe that's even a genuine thought. Do you honestly believe this or do you just not like Paunovic that much?

Agreed. Paunovic did OK for a while because, unlike Ince, he knew how to boost players' self-confidence and self-belief and create a feeling of unity across the squad and club.

I think that’s exactly what Ince did do to start with

Him and Pauno much the same really. Good when playing well then crumbled

[YorkshireRoyal99]

Looking back on the most recent managers, there's seems to be a clear pattern of them starting well and then struggling once a new season starts. Stam, Clement, Gomes, Paunovic and Ince all did either a good job, or at least did what was needed, in their first season and then fell off a cliff in the second. Bowen didn't get the chance to see if the pattern would apply to him as well.

Who was the last manager who started badly, and then significantly improved? Maybe Adkins. Coppell perhaps. I suppose managers don't often get the chance now to improve from a bad start, they'd just get fired before they could recover.

I think the first part is the case with a lot of managers. Come in, start off well, if/when a decline sets in they lose their jobs.

Yeah probably Adkins, although it was expected with him seeing as we weren't cut out for the Premier League and it was a tough ask and got handed it fairly difficult with all the off the field issues the first season back in the Championship.

You could probably say we've been guilty of giving underperforming managers too long to recover. Ince probably should have gone 3/4 games before he did at least, Pauno should have gone after the Fulham defeat in January, Stam probably a month he did before etc.

[ReadingGlasses]

Yeah, Ince definitely should have gone earlier than he did. The tail end of Paunovic also felt like it dragged on for too long. That week where they were knocked out of the cup by Kidderminster, lost by seven at home and then went on a horrendous run of league defeats, felt like some kind of never ending nightmare.

With hindsight the same applies to Stam, but his over achievement in the previous season probably earned him a bit more of a chance to try and turn things around.

[Snowflake Royal]

A good manager may take some time to come good and will probably fail at some clubs. A bad manager will fail sooner or later pretty much everywhere.

I don't think it's hard to come into a poorly performing team and call out what is wrong, when none of it is on you. Lets face it, most of us could do that! And a clean break and fresh positive perspective will often seen an uptick, even if only small. Mostly we've pulled the trigger on poor performing managers early enough that we aren't stuck in relegation, so even a small boost keeps us safe.

But who was the last manager we signed with an actual good record who went on to success after us?

I don't rate him, but at absolute best it's Clarke. Bowen's the only one who didn't fail here, but he had no real prior or subsequent success. I don't buy into excuses about our managers having to deal with difficult circumstances. Yes they did, but they've all shown they were failures with or without that and most still had enough to succeed here if they were any good.

I think they had very little to do with early positives. That was just freshness and optimism about the squad. Things consistently go off the rails as soon as any of them had to deal with any adversity or fix problems. They couldn’t because they were poor managers, and most couldn’t admit they were part of the problem.

Which is why I think it's so important we finally sign a manager with some actual good performance and experience in L1, Champ or at a push L2. We need someone who has been through it and already knows how to deal with set backs and learn from them.

[Sutekh]

A good manager may take some time to come good and will probably fail at some clubs. A bad manager will fail sooner or later pretty much everywhere.

I don't think it's hard to come into a poorly performing team and call out what is wrong, when none of it is on you. Lets face it, most of us could do that! And a clean break and fresh positive perspective will often seen an uptick, even if only small. Mostly we've pulled the trigger on poor performing managers early enough that we aren't stuck in relegation, so even a small boost keeps us safe.

But who was the last manager we signed with an actual good record who went on to success after us?

I don't rate him, but at absolute best it's Clarke. Bowen's the only one who didn't fail here, but he had no real prior or subsequent success. I don't buy into excuses about our managers having to deal with difficult circumstances. Yes they did, but they've all shown they were failures with or without that and most still had enough to succeed here if they were any good.

I think they had very little to do with early positives. That was just freshness and optimism about the squad. Things consistently go off the rails as soon as any of them had to deal with any adversity or fix problems. They couldn’t because they were poor managers, and most couldn’t admit they were part of the problem.

Which is why I think it's so important we finally sign a manager with some actual good performance and experience in L1, Champ or at a push L2. We need someone who has been through it and already knows how to deal with set backs and learn from them.

Maurice Evans did decently, really only let down by the penniless unambitious board he had and their last ditch descent into attempted suicide with Maxwell. He obviously went on to be Oxford's architect of what little greatness they managed and still it's annoying that Smee decided to dump him for no real reason.

[URZZZZ]

Which is why I think it's so important we finally sign a manager with some actual good performance and experience in L1, Champ or at a push L2. We need someone who has been through it and already knows how to deal with set backs and learn from them.

Whilst I can see an argument for this and can see your wider argument in the rest of the post, I still wouldn’t necessarily agree with this. As an alternative, I yearn for the day we have a manager who learns from mistakes and chooses a style based on the players, as opposed to choosing players based off a style. I think that could be more indicative of a younger manager learning the trade

Take Ipswich as an example, perhaps the club most similar to our fate in recent years (playoff failures, then dropping down the table season by season before inevitably dropping). Two “experienced” managers in Lambert and Cook (plenty of promotion credentials there) yet two successive 11th place finishes. McKenna’s first gig, 2nd with 98 points

In saying that, Wilder would be an excellent choice but it’s always good to broaden the horizons and keep your options open (without going overboard, Gomes etc)

[CountryRoyal]

Which is why I think it's so important we finally sign a manager with some actual good performance and experience in L1, Champ or at a push L2. We need someone who has been through it and already knows how to deal with set backs and learn from them.

Whilst I can see an argument for this and can see your wider argument in the rest of the post, I still wouldn’t necessarily agree with this. As an alternative, I yearn for the day we have a manager who learns from mistakes and chooses a style based on the players, as opposed to choosing players based off a style. I think that could be more indicative of a younger manager learning the trade

Take Ipswich as an example, perhaps the club most similar to our fate in recent years (playoff failures, then dropping down the table season by season before inevitably dropping). Two “experienced” managers in Lambert and Cook (plenty of promotion credentials there) yet two successive 11th place finishes. McKenna’s first gig, 2nd with 98 points

In saying that, Wilder would be an excellent choice but it’s always good to broaden the horizons and keep your options open (without going overboard, Gomes etc)

Ipswich just spunked money at it and got fortunate.

[Snowflake Royal]

Which is why I think it's so important we finally sign a manager with some actual good performance and experience in L1, Champ or at a push L2. We need someone who has been through it and already knows how to deal with set backs and learn from them.

Whilst I can see an argument for this and can see your wider argument in the rest of the post, I still wouldn’t necessarily agree with this. As an alternative, I yearn for the day we have a manager who learns from mistakes and chooses a style based on the players, as opposed to choosing players based off a style. I think that could be more indicative of a younger manager learning the trade

Take Ipswich as an example, perhaps the club most similar to our fate in recent years (playoff failures, then dropping down the table season by season before inevitably dropping). Two “experienced” managers in Lambert and Cook (plenty of promotion credentials there) yet two successive 11th place finishes. McKenna’s first gig, 2nd with 98 points

In saying that, Wilder would be an excellent choice but it’s always good to broaden the horizons and keep your options open (without going overboard, Gomes etc)

I think someone experienced needs to lay some ground work. We need to get back in shape then, we can look at inexperience...would Mckenna have done any good without the stabilising top half finishes?

[Sutekh]

"League standing" of ALL (excl. caretakers) Reading's Football League managers (in order of win ratio):

Pos Name - Win Ratio %

1. Harold Bray - 52.6
2. Joe Smith - 50.0
3. Ted Drake - 48.7
4. Billy Butler - 48.5
5. Alan Pardew - 48.3
6. Brian McDermott (1) - 45.0
7. Steve Coppell - 44.3
8. Mark McGhee - 43.2
9. Roy Bentley - 42.2
10. Jaap Stam - 40.8
11. Harry Johnston - 40.2
12. John Cochrane - 40.0
13. Maurice Evans - 39.8
14. Ian Branfoot - 39.3
15. Ian Porterfield - 38.6
16. Joe Edelston - 38.2
17. Charlie Hurley - 38.0
18. Jack Mansell - 37.7
19. Mark Bowen - 37.2
20. Nigel Adkins - 36.3
21. Quinn/Gooding - 36.2
22. Arthur Smith - 36.0
23. Steve Clarke - 35.8
24. Veljko Paunovic - 34.9
25. Arthur Chadwick - 33.9
26. Andrew Wylie - 32.8
27. Terry Bullivant - 32.0
28. Paul Ince - 31.0
29. Brian McDermott (2) - 30.0
30. Tommy Burns - 29.4
31. Harry Marshall - 27.3
32. Brendan Rodgers - 26.1
33. Harry Matthews - 25.2
34. Jose Gomes - 23.6
35. Paul Clement - 23.3

Updated table based on ppg ratio so it takes into account draws as well as wins...

Pos Name - Points Per Game

1. Harold Bray - 1.8241
2. Joe Smith - 1.7663
3. Alan Pardew - 1.6967
4. Billy Butler - 1.6826
5. Ted Drake - 1.6581
6. Brian McDermott (1) - 1.6036
7. Mark McGhee - 1.5738
8. Roy Bentley - 1.5124
9. Steve Coppell - 1.5079
10. Maurice Evans - 1.4730
11. Ian Porterfield - 1.4714
12. Jaap Stam - 1.4694
13. Ian Branfoot - 1.4508
14. Charlie Hurley - 1.4300
15. Harry Johnston - 1.4190
16. Mark Bowen - 1.4000
17. Joe Edelston - 1.4000
18. John Cochrane - 1.4000
19. Quinn/Gooding - 1.3543
20. Jack Mansell - 1.3461
21. Steve Clarke - 1.3396
22. Nigel Adkins - 1.3375
23. Arthur Smith - 1.3110
24. Arthur Chadwick - 1.2679
25. Veljko Paunovic - 1.2439
26. Andrew Wylie - 1.2096
27. Terry Bullivant - 1.1800
28. Brian McDermott (2) - 1.1667
29. Paul Ince - 1.1525
30. Tommy Burns - 1.1471
31. Jose Gomes - 1.1052
32. Brendan Rodgers - 1.0435
33. Harry Marshall - 1.0909
34. Harry Matthews - 1.0157
35. Paul Clement - 0.9667

[Mid Sussex Royal]

A good manager may take some time to come good and will probably fail at some clubs. A bad manager will fail sooner or later pretty much everywhere.

I don't think it's hard to come into a poorly performing team and call out what is wrong, when none of it is on you. Lets face it, most of us could do that! And a clean break and fresh positive perspective will often seen an uptick, even if only small. Mostly we've pulled the trigger on poor performing managers early enough that we aren't stuck in relegation, so even a small boost keeps us safe.

But who was the last manager we signed with an actual good record who went on to success after us?

I don't rate him, but at absolute best it's Clarke. Bowen's the only one who didn't fail here, but he had no real prior or subsequent success. I don't buy into excuses about our managers having to deal with difficult circumstances. Yes they did, but they've all shown they were failures with or without that and most still had enough to succeed here if they were any good.

I think they had very little to do with early positives. That was just freshness and optimism about the squad. Things consistently go off the rails as soon as any of them had to deal with any adversity or fix problems. They couldn’t because they were poor managers, and most couldn’t admit they were part of the problem.

Which is why I think it's so important we finally sign a manager with some actual good performance and experience in L1, Champ or at a push L2. We need someone who has been through it and already knows how to deal with set backs and learn from them.

That's Wilder then , promotions from both L1 & L2.

Why don't you rate Clarke? Has achieved more with a poor Scotland squad than several previous big names.

Is it because of Fulham? They approached him, he spoke to them after agreement by club, and decided to stay put. Brian spoke to Wolves in the summer we went up and stayed put, no difference....

Harshly sacked here after one poor run, the football at the start of that season was the best since McGhee.

[Snowflake Royal]

A good manager may take some time to come good and will probably fail at some clubs. A bad manager will fail sooner or later pretty much everywhere.

I don't think it's hard to come into a poorly performing team and call out what is wrong, when none of it is on you. Lets face it, most of us could do that! And a clean break and fresh positive perspective will often seen an uptick, even if only small. Mostly we've pulled the trigger on poor performing managers early enough that we aren't stuck in relegation, so even a small boost keeps us safe.

But who was the last manager we signed with an actual good record who went on to success after us?

I don't rate him, but at absolute best it's Clarke. Bowen's the only one who didn't fail here, but he had no real prior or subsequent success. I don't buy into excuses about our managers having to deal with difficult circumstances. Yes they did, but they've all shown they were failures with or without that and most still had enough to succeed here if they were any good.

I think they had very little to do with early positives. That was just freshness and optimism about the squad. Things consistently go off the rails as soon as any of them had to deal with any adversity or fix problems. They couldn’t because they were poor managers, and most couldn’t admit they were part of the problem.

Which is why I think it's so important we finally sign a manager with some actual good performance and experience in L1, Champ or at a push L2. We need someone who has been through it and already knows how to deal with set backs and learn from them.

That's Wilder then , promotions from both L1 & L2.

Why don't you rate Clarke? Has achieved more with a poor Scotland squad than several previous big names.

Is it because of Fulham? They approached him, he spoke to them after agreement by club, and decided to stay put. Brian spoke to Wolves in the summer we went up and stayed put, no difference....

Harshly sacked here after one poor run, the football at the start of that season was the best since McGhee.

I don't think International management has much relation to club management. When he arrived he didn't improve us. He then did well in a couple of month spell that coincided with Blackman in the form of his life. But both were pretty much done before he went.

Unlike recent managers, he was looking after a club that hadn't been in terminal decline for years.

And talking to Fulham for a sidestep hasn't done anything to make that better.

[Stranded]

First tweet appears claiming Wilder at the stadium today being filmed.

So probably not a chance of it happening.

[URZZZZ]

Which is why I think it's so important we finally sign a manager with some actual good performance and experience in L1, Champ or at a push L2. We need someone who has been through it and already knows how to deal with set backs and learn from them.

Whilst I can see an argument for this and can see your wider argument in the rest of the post, I still wouldn’t necessarily agree with this. As an alternative, I yearn for the day we have a manager who learns from mistakes and chooses a style based on the players, as opposed to choosing players based off a style. I think that could be more indicative of a younger manager learning the trade

Take Ipswich as an example, perhaps the club most similar to our fate in recent years (playoff failures, then dropping down the table season by season before inevitably dropping). Two “experienced” managers in Lambert and Cook (plenty of promotion credentials there) yet two successive 11th place finishes. McKenna’s first gig, 2nd with 98 points

In saying that, Wilder would be an excellent choice but it’s always good to broaden the horizons and keep your options open (without going overboard, Gomes etc)

I think someone experienced needs to lay some ground work. We need to get back in shape then, we can look at inexperience...would Mckenna have done any good without the stabilising top half finishes?

Evidence suggests there wasn’t much ground work accomplished beforehand. McKenna took over a bloated squad (as an example, Cook had made 19 summer signings in the previous summer window). Didn’t set the world on fire straight away but was clear there was something worth persevering with and Ipswich are reaping the rewards now

From a personal perspective, given the expected turnover of players and the needed clean slate, now would be a logical period to give an up and coming coach a crack at turning the club around again. Think they’d be given more patience than someone like Wilder, who will come with huge expectations (especially after two disappointing stints in a row). Appreciate others will see it different mind, especially as we’ve appointed a mixture of experience/non experience for around a decade now to little success

[Arnie_Pie]

He can get much better than this shit show.

[Stranded]

He can get much better than this shit show.

He probably could, if he waited, but he may not be the right fit for any club looking for a new manager or he may not see available clubs as the right fit for him.

He may see us as an opportunity to essentially build a squad from scratch that fits the way he wants to play as opposed to taking over an existing squad and trying to evolve it.

None of this guarantees it will happen or if it is ever a live possibility but for a lot of managers we would be an interesting challenge right now - esp. as if it goes tits up, you can turn around and say "well the club was a mess behind the scenes, making it near impossible to have a positive impact in the time I got".

[blythspartan]

He can get much better than this shit show.

He probably could, if he waited, but he may not be the right fit for any club looking for a new manager or he may not see available clubs as the right fit for him.

He may see us as an opportunity to essentially build a squad from scratch that fits the way he wants to play as opposed to taking over an existing squad and trying to evolve it.

None of this guarantees it will happen or if it is ever a live possibility but for a lot of managers we would be an interesting challenge right now - esp. as if it goes tits up, you can turn around and say "well the club was a mess behind the scenes, making it near impossible to have a positive impact in the time I got".

I agree with this and I am hoping that the shit show is in the past.

If Dai and the team can get their shit together we can be a really great opportunity for the right manager. My view is that Wilder took the Watford job and they’re a basket case of a club. With us he can rebuild and mould the team into what he wants it to be.

[From Despair To Where?]

I get why Wilder took the Watford job. Its a bit like temping between jobs. You know its going to be short term but the money comes in handy whilst looking for a proper job and no-ones really going to judge him on it.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

He can get much better than this shit show.

He probably could, if he waited, but he may not be the right fit for any club looking for a new manager or he may not see available clubs as the right fit for him.

He may see us as an opportunity to essentially build a squad from scratch that fits the way he wants to play as opposed to taking over an existing squad and trying to evolve it.

None of this guarantees it will happen or if it is ever a live possibility but for a lot of managers we would be an interesting challenge right now - esp. as if it goes tits up, you can turn around and say "well the club was a mess behind the scenes, making it near impossible to have a positive impact in the time I got".

Yeah for all the shit over the last 3/4 years, this is probably the best chance anyone will get to start us up from scratch again. Still got some players that we can work with, possibly a couple of players carrying value that may move on, giving us more flexibility in the market as well as a lot of scope to bring in the players that a manager would want, in the system they'd want.