Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

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blythspartan
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Re: another, thants right another embargo for late PAYE payments - a new embargo

by blythspartan » 17 Aug 2023 13:21

windermereROYAL
blythspartan I can’t say I am a fan of the EFL, but without their intervention we’d be further up shit creek.

Also, I now want Dai out but I am not sure how much he can be blamed for not being able to transfer funds from China. The owners of Wolves and WBA are also facing the same issues.


Wolves and WBA have never not paid the wages and taxes that I`m aware of.


I would expect not as Wolves get the premiership money and WBA were receiving parachute payments. Plus, both teams are much better supported than us. I work with a Wolves fan and he is quite fearful about their future

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Re: another, thants right another embargo for late PAYE payments - a new embargo

by Mr Angry » 17 Aug 2023 14:23

I'm not sure how many on here read the Daily Telegraph (ok, just me then!) but they did a big article on Reading in last night's on-line edition.

I will cut and paste it as if I post a link, you will need to log into the Telegraph site to be able to read it.......................

Reading suffer fresh points deduction after further EFL rule breaches
The beleaguered football club has been sanctioned three times in under two years

By
John Percy
16 August 2023 • 4:45pm
Madejski Stadium - Reading suffer fresh points deduction after further EFL rule breaches

This is not the first time Reading have been in trouble for rule breaches

Reading have suffered a third points deduction in under two years after further breaches of the Football League’s financial rules.

After being slapped with two separate six-point sanctions, Reading will now be deducted one point, with a further three points suspended, for failing to pay their players on time on three occasions.

It takes Reading’s total to 13 points deducted under their owner, Dai Yongge, who has also been fined £10,000.

The Chinese businessman completed his takeover in 2017 and the club has been plunged into crisis over a turbulent two-year period.

In a statement the EFL said they were “extremely frustrated at the consistent failures of the club’s ownership to meet its ongoing obligations under EFL Regulations, the consequences of which are having a negative impact for all those associated with Reading, particularly its staff members, supporters, and local community.”

The EFL also confirmed they are reviewing the decision reached by the independent disciplinary commission, which raises the prospect of further sanctions.

Telegraph Sport examines the elusive Yongge’s tenure and the deepening crisis at a club who were in the Premier League just over ten years ago.

How bad is the Reading situation?
Reading were first punished with a six-point deduction for exceeding losses over the permitted £39 million across three years.

In the 2018-19 season it was reported that Reading’s wage bill was £40 million, working out as 194 per cent of their turnover. For the following campaign their accounts revealed total accumulated losses of £138 million.

The EFL then placed Reading under a strict business plan, which restricted them from making permanent transfers or spending on loan fees. However, they were deducted a further six points in April for their failure to meet an agreed budget. It was concluded that Reading had not generated enough money from player sales and were relying on a proposed deal that had not been completed by a March 1 deadline to satisfy their commitments.

Those sanctions ultimately led to Reading’s relegation to the third tier for the first time since 2002.

In June, there was further unwanted scrutiny when they were charged with “multiple breaches” of regulations, including failing to pay their players on time on three occasions. Yongge was also charged.

A transfer embargo was also briefly imposed on the club after failing to pay HMRC on time, but was removed this month. Three separate winding-up petitions complete the embarrassing charge sheet.

Why is Reading’s owner struggling to pay wages?

Yongge’s financial backing cannot be questioned, with over £200 million invested into the club since 2017. Yet it has clearly been spent unwisely, and he has received poor advice from associates.

The wider issue is Yongge’s difficulties in transferring money from China to England to pay wages, HMRC and maintain running costs. It is understood that the Chinese government has imposed limits on capital flowing out of the country.

That is clearly a huge concern to the EFL, and other clubs, who regard the non-payment of wages as a serious matter.

However, it has to be pointed out that West Brom, another club enduring financial problems with Chinese ownership, have always paid their staff on time, so this appears to be an issue directly affecting Reading.

For the months of Oct and Nov 2022, and Apr 2023 - wages were either paid late or not in full, though it is understood on two occasions the delay was short.

As a result of this latest sanction, the EFL has instructed Yongge to set up a deposit account, to alleviate the prospect of wages being unpaid again.

How do Reading’s fans feel about the current ownership?

Following Reading’s relegation to League One in May, the mood among supporters is mutinous. Quite simply, they want new ownership and appear to have no trust in Yongge.

A fans group called “Sell Before We Dai” was set up this year with the intention of forcing a sale. These fans will have witnessed the transformation at Birmingham City after the arrival of ambitious new ownership.

On Tuesday night, Reading secured their first league win in almost six months with a 1–0 home victory over Cheltenham. The attendance was understood to be below 9,000.

New head coach Ruben Selles, who was at Southampton last season, is regarded as a shrewd operator but is working on extremely limited resources in his first full-time job.

While this latest points deduction will be viewed as rather lenient - Wigan began this season on minus eight after two separate four-point deductions for late payment of wages - the future appears bleak until there is a change of owners.

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Re: another, thants right another embargo for late PAYE payments - a new embargo

by Snowflake Royal » 17 Aug 2023 15:11

Hound Don’t disagree with the above but have to also accept it’s massively frustrating to the fanbase when we keep getting deductions and embargoes due to the owner - who no one has any time for particularly, keeps getting the team punished in a way that affects the fans for things we’ve had no influence on whatsoever like late wage payments

I mean it’s not ‘us’ that have misbehaved. It’s not the players either who we most identify with. It’s the incompetent owner who we have no control over pretty much alone

Every fan would be of the mindset that the wages should be paid on time, the tax bill should be paid. But it’s us that gets hit when those things don’t happen by having points gained taken away and having trouble signing anyone. I’m sure we all want these problems to go away

It’s a tricky one - you can’t blame fans for being properly annoyed at it all. Think the EFL pushing for a harsher penalty than what was deemed justified isn’t going to improve the mood either

If you're going to argue its not 'us' that offends, well its not 'us' that is being punished. Club and owner offends, club and owner punished.

'We' haven't lost points or been fined. Our ability to go to games is unaffected.

The EFL were pushing for punishments within the guidelines the club agreed to. The club argued their case better so the independent panel deviated from the 'non-binding' guidelines.

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Re: another, thants right another embargo for late PAYE payments - a new embargo

by Sutekh » 17 Aug 2023 15:16

Anyone else wishing this whole season was over already?

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Re: another, thants right another embargo for late PAYE payments - a new embargo

by Snowflake Royal » 17 Aug 2023 15:17

No, expecting itto be better than last season. Just want dai gone.


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Re: another, thants right another embargo for late PAYE payments - a new embargo

by Hound » 17 Aug 2023 15:38

Snowflake Royal
Hound Don’t disagree with the above but have to also accept it’s massively frustrating to the fanbase when we keep getting deductions and embargoes due to the owner - who no one has any time for particularly, keeps getting the team punished in a way that affects the fans for things we’ve had no influence on whatsoever like late wage payments

I mean it’s not ‘us’ that have misbehaved. It’s not the players either who we most identify with. It’s the incompetent owner who we have no control over pretty much alone

Every fan would be of the mindset that the wages should be paid on time, the tax bill should be paid. But it’s us that gets hit when those things don’t happen by having points gained taken away and having trouble signing anyone. I’m sure we all want these problems to go away

It’s a tricky one - you can’t blame fans for being properly annoyed at it all. Think the EFL pushing for a harsher penalty than what was deemed justified isn’t going to improve the mood either

If you're going to argue its not 'us' that offends, well its not 'us' that is being punished. Club and owner offends, club and owner punished.

'We' haven't lost points or been fined. Our ability to go to games is unaffected.

The EFL were pushing for punishments within the guidelines the club agreed to. The club argued their case better so the independent panel deviated from the 'non-binding' guidelines.


I personally say we should just get on with it, as should the EFL who have clearly messed up their own guidelines which does amuse me a bit, rather than whining about it

But can see why people are frustrated. No one want Dai here, he keeps offending, and there seems little anything anyone can do it about it except keep giving out points deductions

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Re: another, thants right another embargo for late PAYE payments - a new embargo

by windermereROYAL » 17 Aug 2023 18:41

When we need to sell players to balance the books you know we could be in big trouble very soon if we can`t shift them.

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Re: another, thants right another embargo for late PAYE payments - a new embargo

by Mid Sussex Royal » 17 Aug 2023 18:54

It would be good to understand the club's current budget, surely now it can't be Dai has to cover all the wages?

What's happened to the money from Puscas (even if in instalments) and the academy lad who went to City?

I also wonder how close the investment is

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Re: another, thants right another embargo for late PAYE payments - a new embargo

by Hound » 17 Aug 2023 21:06

windermereROYAL When we need to sell players to balance the books you know we could be in big trouble very soon if we can`t shift them.


Dunno if that’s true or not about needing to sell players


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Re: another, thants right another embargo for late PAYE payments - a new embargo

by Elm Park Kid » 17 Aug 2023 22:29

Hound Don’t disagree with the above but have to also accept it’s massively frustrating to the fanbase when we keep getting deductions and embargoes due to the owner - who no one has any time for particularly, keeps getting the team punished in a way that affects the fans for things we’ve had no influence on whatsoever like late wage payments

I mean it’s not ‘us’ that have misbehaved. It’s not the players either who we most identify with. It’s the incompetent owner who we have no control over pretty much alone

Every fan would be of the mindset that the wages should be paid on time, the tax bill should be paid. But it’s us that gets hit when those things don’t happen by having points gained taken away and having trouble signing anyone. I’m sure we all want these problems to go away

It’s a tricky one - you can’t blame fans for being properly annoyed at it all. Think the EFL pushing for a harsher penalty than what was deemed justified isn’t going to improve the mood either


Yeah, I get those arguments. But I'd make three points.

1 - Some of it is about ensuring that owners aren't incentivized to break the rules if all that can happen is they are punished in a way that they don't care about. The points deduction is highly visible and causes a lot of public anger and shame for the owner from upset fans. None of us care if Dai gets fined or banned from attending matches or anything like that.

2 - Some of it is about readdressing the theoretical 'advantage' that we gain from breaking the rules. Has anyone thought that the only way we were able to sign certain players in June and July was because we didn't pay our tax bill? How should other clubs who would have liked to sign those players instead feel if the club aren't given a 'handicap' in some way. Ok, paying staff a day late doesn't really fit in with that - that's more about some completely mystifying managerial/ownership incompetence. But it's an important issue and the EFL has to have something to deter owners from doing it.

3. And I also agree with the point here that ultimately fans aren't 'punished'. Lack of success is part and parcel of football .

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Re: another, thants right another embargo for late PAYE payments - a new embargo

by Lower West » 17 Aug 2023 23:43

One Beer is never enough. The full decision. Makes for interesting reading - we clearly have an incredibly competent lawyer...

https://s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/gc-media-assets.gc.eflservices.co.uk/6882a630-3c35-11ee-8889-71ca1029c2af.pdf


A rather convenient retirement. :wink:

Also, as you will be aware, Bryan Stabler, who was Finance Director of the Club for
over 28 years, retired on 30 April 2023.

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Re: another, thants right another embargo for late PAYE payments - a new embargo

by Lower West » 17 Aug 2023 23:59

Brogue
One Beer is never enough. The full decision. Makes for interesting reading - we clearly have an incredibly competent lawyer...

https://s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/gc-media-assets.gc.eflservices.co.uk/6882a630-3c35-11ee-8889-71ca1029c2af.pdf


Kendra Potts, and yes she is. I was just talking to a few senior people at the club this morning and they are very impressed with the job she’s doing for us.


For Dai not us.

I'd say that the EFL are progressively tightening the noose. Dai isn't in control of the game anymore. He's playing for time and at every juncture he's less room for manoeuvre. Make a great movie one day.

For the record these are the issues that need to be resolved before China Dili Group's shares can be readmitted to the HK stock exchange.

UPDATE ON RESUMPTION PROGRESS
As disclosed in the announcement of the Company dated 30 November 2022, the Stock Exchange
has set out the following Initial Resumption Guidance for the Company:
(i) conduct an appropriate independent forensic investigation into the circumstances giving rise
to the Guarantees and the Claims and the extent of other guarantee obligations undertaken
by the Group, announce the findings and take appropriate remedial actions;
(ii) demonstrate that there is no reasonable regulatory concern about the management integrity
and/or the integrity of any persons with substantial influence over the Company’s
management and operations, which may pose a risk to investors and damage market
confidence;
(iii) conduct an independent internal control review and demonstrate that the Company has in
place adequate internal controls and procedures to meet its obligations under the Listing
Rules; and
(iv) announce all material information for the Company’s shareholders and investors to appraise
its position.
Last edited by Lower West on 18 Aug 2023 00:11, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: another, thants right another embargo for late PAYE payments - a new embargo

by Elm Park Kid » 18 Aug 2023 00:10

Lower West
Brogue
One Beer is never enough. The full decision. Makes for interesting reading - we clearly have an incredibly competent lawyer...

https://s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/gc-media-assets.gc.eflservices.co.uk/6882a630-3c35-11ee-8889-71ca1029c2af.pdf


Kendra Potts, and yes she is. I was just talking to a few senior people at the club this morning and they are very impressed with the job she’s doing for us.


For Dai not us.

I'd say that the EFL are progressively tightening the noose. Dai isn't in control of the game anymore. He's playing for time and at every juncture he's less room for manoeuvre. Make a great movie one day.


Surely there's only one title - Live Fast: Dai Yongge.


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Re: another, thants right another embargo for late PAYE payments - a new embargo

by CountryRoyal » 18 Aug 2023 01:35

Snowflake Royal
Hound Don’t disagree with the above but have to also accept it’s massively frustrating to the fanbase when we keep getting deductions and embargoes due to the owner - who no one has any time for particularly, keeps getting the team punished in a way that affects the fans for things we’ve had no influence on whatsoever like late wage payments

I mean it’s not ‘us’ that have misbehaved. It’s not the players either who we most identify with. It’s the incompetent owner who we have no control over pretty much alone

Every fan would be of the mindset that the wages should be paid on time, the tax bill should be paid. But it’s us that gets hit when those things don’t happen by having points gained taken away and having trouble signing anyone. I’m sure we all want these problems to go away

It’s a tricky one - you can’t blame fans for being properly annoyed at it all. Think the EFL pushing for a harsher penalty than what was deemed justified isn’t going to improve the mood either

If you're going to argue its not 'us' that offends, well its not 'us' that is being punished. Club and owner offends, club and owner punished.

'We' haven't lost points or been fined. Our ability to go to games is unaffected.

The EFL were pushing for punishments within the guidelines the club agreed to. The club argued their case better so the independent panel deviated from the 'non-binding' guidelines.


You have your faults but surely you're magnanimous enough to know that’s total tosh. Any affect on the team is affecting the fans. Points deductions do that more than anything. I doubt it’s Sandra in sales’ fault but she could have lost her job, because we got relegated, because of points deductions. A football club is not an average business, no one turns up twice a week to cheer your name and celebrate when you do your job. Any punishments like these really affect the fanbase, often whose main purpose is their football club. We at Reading, curtesy of geography, opportunity and or education, are fortunate for that to apply less than some. Dai doesn’t give a shit about a poxy point here or there. We as fans, do. Unfortunately. I don’t know a solution (get better owners) harsher fines against the individual, ultimately leading to administration (without points deductions but see the problem with that) if they fail to pay. Guess just get lucky with good owners! The whole thing sucks thought, traditionally. No idea what will happen in the future but the Saudis will come and go one the official directives change, just like China. as Reading fans we had a good club, the Reading way, we weren’t a big club but we were well run and often played exciting attacking football. I miss those days.

I’ve partially argued against it for various reasons but I’d like to see us back in the prem before I die (under good leadership/management/clear-attractive identity) as being there consistently is our only chance of ever growing the club. Even these days relegated clubs are at such an advantage. Don’t even know if I’ll live to see us promoted from this league currently. At the moment I’m just “happy” to see what I can see. Watching the youth play with intent and pace is just so unlike anything we’ve seen for ages so I’m enjoying it as long as it lasts.

But yeah it’s important we go up as soon as possible but our best bet is to build a squad capable of being a championship competitive side. It makes me sad I can’t enjoy football (or anything these days) as much as before the surgery but hopefully in time I’ll be able to. The one positive is that the negatives are irksome but really not that annoying. Was more pissed off I got rained on at pv rather than the result or the performance.

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Re: another, thants right another embargo for late PAYE payments - a new embargo

by Sutekh » 18 Aug 2023 06:24

Lower West
One Beer is never enough. The full decision. Makes for interesting reading - we clearly have an incredibly competent lawyer...

https://s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/gc-media-assets.gc.eflservices.co.uk/6882a630-3c35-11ee-8889-71ca1029c2af.pdf


A rather convenient retirement. :wink:

Also, as you will be aware, Bryan Stabler, who was Finance Director of the Club for
over 28 years, retired on 30 April 2023.


If that's the case then perhaps one of the podcast groups should interview him and see if he can give any insights into the current mess.

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Re: another, thants right another embargo for late PAYE payments - a new embargo

by Stranded » 18 Aug 2023 08:20

CountryRoyal
Snowflake Royal
Hound Don’t disagree with the above but have to also accept it’s massively frustrating to the fanbase when we keep getting deductions and embargoes due to the owner - who no one has any time for particularly, keeps getting the team punished in a way that affects the fans for things we’ve had no influence on whatsoever like late wage payments

I mean it’s not ‘us’ that have misbehaved. It’s not the players either who we most identify with. It’s the incompetent owner who we have no control over pretty much alone

Every fan would be of the mindset that the wages should be paid on time, the tax bill should be paid. But it’s us that gets hit when those things don’t happen by having points gained taken away and having trouble signing anyone. I’m sure we all want these problems to go away

It’s a tricky one - you can’t blame fans for being properly annoyed at it all. Think the EFL pushing for a harsher penalty than what was deemed justified isn’t going to improve the mood either

If you're going to argue its not 'us' that offends, well its not 'us' that is being punished. Club and owner offends, club and owner punished.

'We' haven't lost points or been fined. Our ability to go to games is unaffected.

The EFL were pushing for punishments within the guidelines the club agreed to. The club argued their case better so the independent panel deviated from the 'non-binding' guidelines.


You have your faults but surely you're magnanimous enough to know that’s total tosh. Any affect on the team is affecting the fans. Points deductions do that more than anything. I doubt it’s Sandra in sales’ fault but she could have lost her job, because we got relegated, because of points deductions. A football club is not an average business, no one turns up twice a week to cheer your name and celebrate when you do your job. Any punishments like these really affect the fanbase, often whose main purpose is their football club. We at Reading, curtesy of geography, opportunity and or education, are fortunate for that to apply less than some. Dai doesn’t give a shit about a poxy point here or there. We as fans, do. Unfortunately. I don’t know a solution (get better owners) harsher fines against the individual, ultimately leading to administration (without points deductions but see the problem with that) if they fail to pay. Guess just get lucky with good owners! The whole thing sucks thought, traditionally. No idea what will happen in the future but the Saudis will come and go one the official directives change, just like China. as Reading fans we had a good club, the Reading way, we weren’t a big club but we were well run and often played exciting attacking football. I miss those days.

I’ve partially argued against it for various reasons but I’d like to see us back in the prem before I die (under good leadership/management/clear-attractive identity) as being there consistently is our only chance of ever growing the club. Even these days relegated clubs are at such an advantage. Don’t even know if I’ll live to see us promoted from this league currently. At the moment I’m just “happy” to see what I can see. Watching the youth play with intent and pace is just so unlike anything we’ve seen for ages so I’m enjoying it as long as it lasts.

But yeah it’s important we go up as soon as possible but our best bet is to build a squad capable of being a championship competitive side. It makes me sad I can’t enjoy football (or anything these days) as much as before the surgery but hopefully in time I’ll be able to. The one positive is that the negatives are irksome but really not that annoying. Was more pissed off I got rained on at pv rather than the result or the performance.


Firstly, hope your recovery goes well and you get back to a decent level of health.

You raise some good points and I've long argued that the EFL needs to implement a change that forces an owner to place enough funds to cover a years budget in a club account upon takeover, this would be separate to any day to day account. This amount can only be drawn down in strict circumstances i.e. if wage payment is going to be late etc - ownership change can only be ratified once proof of those funds are in place. The owner would have this money returned, with interest, should they sell the club or if the club has over an agreed level in their own accounts (again probably around a years budget) and that level has been maintained for say 12 months, or they have been out of the EFL for say 2 full seasons.

The rulings against us and Wigan seem to be moving in that direction by forcing owners to set up the account with 125% of the wage bill in, so seems like an obvious step to help protect clubs when ownership changes. Will likely never happen though.

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Re: another, thants right another embargo for late PAYE payments - a new embargo

by Hound » 18 Aug 2023 08:50

That’s not a bad idea stranded - though guess at some levels that could be an awful lot of money to just put aside. Budget for a prem side must be hundred of millions

It’s a difficult one as I said. The blunt instrument of points deductions feels wrong to me but difficult to see an obvious other solution. Again telling a player that they are getting their wages late and a points deduction to give with it isn’t great

The 125% is a good idea - though obvs the punishment for not doing this is….a points deduction. Yay.

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Re: another, thants right another embargo for late PAYE payments - a new embargo

by Brogue » 18 Aug 2023 09:08

Hound That’s not a bad idea stranded - though guess at some levels that could be an awful lot of money to just put aside. Budget for a prem side must be hundred of millions

It’s a difficult one as I said. The blunt instrument of points deductions feels wrong to me but difficult to see an obvious other solution. Again telling a player that they are getting their wages late and a points deduction to give with it isn’t great

The 125% is a good idea - though obvs the punishment for not doing this is….a points deduction. Yay.


But yet all fans want Man City to get a points deduction/relegated for their financial doping. As a large fine to owner will be a drop in the water. So are we saying it’s fine for Man City to gets point deductions. But not Reading?

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Re: another, thants right another embargo for late PAYE payments - a new embargo

by Sanguine » 18 Aug 2023 09:24

Indeed. I'd like it to be otherwise - and our lawyers have done very well - but I personally think that a total separation of owner and club is stretching it somewhat. Broadly speaking, and I hate to say it, 'we' thoroughly deserve our predicament. No-one would give a fcuk how Dai was doing things if we were successful.

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Re: another, thants right another embargo for late PAYE payments - a new embargo

by SCIAG » 18 Aug 2023 09:42

Snowflake Royal If you're going to argue its not 'us' that offends, well its not 'us' that is being punished. Club and owner offends, club and owner punished.

'We' haven't lost points or been fined. Our ability to go to games is unaffected.

Looking forward to the EFL announcing that due to non-payment of wages they will be deducting one point from Pepe the Horseman.

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