Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

[MouldyRoyal]

How does that work with clubs with smaller fanbases though? Realistically, we have fewer fans than, say, Derby or several teams in the league above. Does this not create a systemic issue where the teams with historically larger fanbases have more fan investment potential leading to greater success and further enhanced fanbases?

EDIT: This is a genuine question btw, I don't have the details on the German model. But it has always seemed to me like it would perpetuate a big-club supremacy

[Lower West]

How does that work with clubs with smaller fanbases though? Realistically, we have fewer fans than, say, Derby or several teams in the league above. Does this not create a systemic issue where the teams with historically larger fanbases have more fan investment potential leading to greater success and further enhanced fanbases?

EDIT: This is a genuine question btw, I don't have the details on the German model. But it has always seemed to me like it would perpetuate a big-club supremacy

Isn't just about first team football. The club becomes a core part of the community. People become more engaged on a whole range of levels.

[CountryRoyal]

Without going through the previous pages, can someone just share where we are currently at regarding pts deductions? Anything looming?

[leon]

Without going through the previous pages, can someone just share where we are currently at regarding pts deductions? Anything looming?

This.

[WestYorksRoyal]

Without going through the previous pages, can someone just share where we are currently at regarding pts deductions? Anything looming?

Nothing coming at the moment, but expect zero tolerance if/when we fail to pay wages on time again.

[windermereROYAL]

So in short, Dai will be proven to be a crook with little or no interest in paying wages or tax bills, but the EFL will continue to hammer the club, fans and community with seemingly endless point deductions, sounds right.

[Mid Sussex Royal]

Tax due tomorrow for Aug, so if not paid will be a meaningless transfer embargo.

Key date is pay day next Friday, but I guess an points deduction will take time given the process has to start again

[Stranded]

How does that work with clubs with smaller fanbases though? Realistically, we have fewer fans than, say, Derby or several teams in the league above. Does this not create a systemic issue where the teams with historically larger fanbases have more fan investment potential leading to greater success and further enhanced fanbases?

EDIT: This is a genuine question btw, I don't have the details on the German model. But it has always seemed to me like it would perpetuate a big-club supremacy

Isn't just about first team football. The club becomes a core part of the community. People become more engaged on a whole range of levels.

This. Mentioned before but football clubs here are very much in the community - the 1st team on the men/women is just the tip of the iceberg - for example by son is playing in an U8s rugby tournament this weekend hosted by Eintracht. Its not just sport either, 5 mins walk from my office in the city there is an Eintracht Frankfurt Indian restaurant!

The 51% doesn't cause any major systemic issue, yes you have the massive clubs at the top but clubs are still able to climb the rankings look at Heidenheim as an example who won their first even game in the Bundesliga at the weekend and only around a decade ago were in the regionalised 5th tier. What it stops is decisions being made by the club management that the fans don't support - RB Leipzig have found a way around the rules though which I imagine would be stretched to breaking point if it was ever bought into English game.

[Snowflake Royal]

How does that work with clubs with smaller fanbases though? Realistically, we have fewer fans than, say, Derby or several teams in the league above. Does this not create a systemic issue where the teams with historically larger fanbases have more fan investment potential leading to greater success and further enhanced fanbases?

EDIT: This is a genuine question btw, I don't have the details on the German model. But it has always seemed to me like it would perpetuate a big-club supremacy

Yes, to an extent. But that has ever been thus. Bigger clubs attract richer owners. Make more in merchandising. And TV rights. And Champions League money.

It doesn't really change any heirarchy. It protects clubs for the fans, involves the fans. And maybe encourages sustainable growth over time rather than boom and bust.

[Lower West]

So in short, Dai will be proven to be a crook with little or no interest in paying wages or tax bills, but the EFL will continue to hammer the club, fans and community with seemingly endless point deductions, sounds right.

There has to be a fair and equitable playing field for all clubs in the EFL. Long overdue. Money is ruining the game in the lower leagues. Crazy players wages being paid in league 2.

[Elm Park Kid]

I understand why some fans find the points deduction/transfer embargo system so unfair. But, at the same time they need to explain what they would replace them with. What other system would:

1. Deter owners from running clubs in financially dangerous/unfair ways?
2. Rectify the potential advantage that a club gains from breaking financial rules?

Remember that the EFL has no legal power over any of the clubs. They are private companies, controlled by their owners and only accountable to the UK's legal system. The only control the EFL have is whether a club is allowed to play in their leagues or not, and even that is limited by the courts. The EFL can issue fines but they are not legally binding. They can ban owners from being part of the EFL, but they can't stop an owner from controlling a particular club. So, it really is just the nuclear option of kicking someone out the EFL, which has never happened to a club that is able to fulfil its fixtures.

Maybe once the new laws come through and there's an independent regulator of football things will improve. But I won't be holding my breath that this Tory government is going to go ahead with it.

[WestYorksRoyal]

With the EFL's existing powers, points deductions are the only effective tool available. It definitely needs a bigger political conversation about how we regulate the game.

[Norfolk Royal]

With the EFL's existing powers, points deductions are the only effective tool available. It definitely needs a bigger political conversation about how we regulate the game.

That's probably true although football fans being what they are if a middle-eastern oil nation took over RFC I would suspect any other worries would soon be forgotten in the rush to buy Arab head dresses to wear to the next game.

The problem with the EFL points deductions are that they appear to be predicated on the belief that the owner of a club is as invested as the ardent fans/supporters are.

Clearly that isn't the case with regards to Reading FC so the premise falls.

[Lower West]

The problem with the EFL points deductions are that they appear to be predicated on the belief that the owner of a club is as invested as the ardent fans/supporters are.

Fans need to park their emotions at the door. With the sums of money that are in the game these days. A football club has to be run as a business. In a sound and financially sound manner. Not as a billionaires plaything. There'll never be stability or success on the pitch while the club teeters from one cliff edge to another.

[Elm Park Kid]

With the EFL's existing powers, points deductions are the only effective tool available. It definitely needs a bigger political conversation about how we regulate the game.

That's probably true although football fans being what they are if a middle-eastern oil nation took over RFC I would suspect any other worries would soon be forgotten in the rush to buy Arab head dresses to wear to the next game.

The problem with the EFL points deductions are that they appear to be predicated on the belief that the owner of a club is as invested as the ardent fans/supporters are.

Clearly that isn't the case with regards to Reading FC so the premise falls.

I keep seeing this comment about how fans would be happy if someone rich bought us - but up until recently money wasn't the problem. Remember that Dai spent an absolutely ridiculous amount of money before the EFL intervened. We're in this position due to overspending, not underspending.

What the club desperately needs is not money, it's competency. Ok. . .ok . . .the individual does need to have a certain amount of money for the club to stabilise and then prosper - but given the choice between a Saudi with $4bn to spend and someone like Mike Ashley who wants to put in £50m tops, I'd go with Ashley.

[Hound]

I understand why some fans find the points deduction/transfer embargo system so unfair. But, at the same time they need to explain what they would replace them with. What other system would:

1. Deter owners from running clubs in financially dangerous/unfair ways?
2. Rectify the potential advantage that a club gains from breaking financial rules?

Remember that the EFL has no legal power over any of the clubs. They are private companies, controlled by their owners and only accountable to the UK's legal system. The only control the EFL have is whether a club is allowed to play in their leagues or not, and even that is limited by the courts. The EFL can issue fines but they are not legally binding. They can ban owners from being part of the EFL, but they can't stop an owner from controlling a particular club. So, it really is just the nuclear option of kicking someone out the EFL, which has never happened to a club that is able to fulfil its fixtures.

Maybe once the new laws come through and there's an independent regulator of football things will improve. But I won't be holding my breath that this Tory government is going to go ahead with it.

Guess they can do whatever within the structure of the league. Ie prevent a team being promoted, forced relegations, not allow to compete in the league, points deductions obvs

[Stranded]

I understand why some fans find the points deduction/transfer embargo system so unfair. But, at the same time they need to explain what they would replace them with. What other system would:

1. Deter owners from running clubs in financially dangerous/unfair ways?
2. Rectify the potential advantage that a club gains from breaking financial rules?

Remember that the EFL has no legal power over any of the clubs. They are private companies, controlled by their owners and only accountable to the UK's legal system. The only control the EFL have is whether a club is allowed to play in their leagues or not, and even that is limited by the courts. The EFL can issue fines but they are not legally binding. They can ban owners from being part of the EFL, but they can't stop an owner from controlling a particular club. So, it really is just the nuclear option of kicking someone out the EFL, which has never happened to a club that is able to fulfil its fixtures.

Maybe once the new laws come through and there's an independent regulator of football things will improve. But I won't be holding my breath that this Tory government is going to go ahead with it.

Guess they can do whatever within the structure of the league. Ie prevent a team being promoted, forced relegations, not allow to compete in the league, points deductions obvs

Only if it is within the parameters of penalties agreed to by the members. Expulsion is, in certain circumstances, I don't know if preventing promotions/relegations is possible. Points deductions are obviously a deterrent and the EFL could penalise a club with a big enough hit so that relegation is pretty much a given - i.e. when Luton got a 30 point deduction.

[Greatwesternline]

I understand why some fans find the points deduction/transfer embargo system so unfair. But, at the same time they need to explain what they would replace them with. What other system would:

1. Deter owners from running clubs in financially dangerous/unfair ways?
2. Rectify the potential advantage that a club gains from breaking financial rules?

Remember that the EFL has no legal power over any of the clubs. They are private companies, controlled by their owners and only accountable to the UK's legal system. The only control the EFL have is whether a club is allowed to play in their leagues or not, and even that is limited by the courts. The EFL can issue fines but they are not legally binding. They can ban owners from being part of the EFL, but they can't stop an owner from controlling a particular club. So, it really is just the nuclear option of kicking someone out the EFL, which has never happened to a club that is able to fulfil its fixtures.

Maybe once the new laws come through and there's an independent regulator of football things will improve. But I won't be holding my breath that this Tory government is going to go ahead with it.

Guess they can do whatever within the structure of the league. Ie prevent a team being promoted, forced relegations, not allow to compete in the league, points deductions obvs

Only if it is within the parameters of penalties agreed to by the members. Expulsion is, in certain circumstances, I don't know if preventing promotions/relegations is possible. Points deductions are obviously a deterrent and the EFL could penalise a club with a big enough hit so that relegation is pretty much a given - i.e. when Luton got a 30 point deduction.

bump

85 The League’s Disciplinary Powers
85.1 The League has the power to bring disciplinary proceedings for misconduct against any Club, Official, Player and/or any other individual subject to these Regulations by:
85.1.1 imposing a fixed penalty in accordance with the provisions of Regulation 88;
85.1.2 referring the matter to a Disciplinary Commission appointed under Regulation 90;
85.1.3 referring the matter to the Football Association in accordance with Regulation 89; or
85.1.4 in respect of the Financial Regulations, by referring the matter to the CFRP in accordance with Appendix 6.
85.2 The same facts or matters may constitute a breach of more than one Article, Regulation, order, requirement, direction or instruction referred to above. The League may bring a charge or such charges as it sees fit.


Decisions
93.1 The Disciplinary Commission may at any time make a decision, and may make more than one decision at different times on different aspects of the matters to be determined.
93.2 A decision may:
93.2.1 order a party to do or refrain from doing anything;
93.2.2 order a specific performance;
93.2.3 make a declaration on any matter to be determined;
93.2.4 issue a reprimand or warning as to the future conduct of a party;
93.2.5 order the payment of compensation to The League, any Club, any other club, Player or other person;
93.2.6 order a suspension of membership of The League;
93.2.7 order a deduction of points;
93.2.8 impose a financial penalty payable to The League;
93.2.9 recommend expulsion from membership of The League;
93.2.10 order a withdrawal or loss of benefit otherwise available to members of The League e.g. basic award or ladder payment;
93.2.11 impose an embargo on registration of Players;
93.2.12 order any other sanction as the Disciplinary Commission may think fit; and
93.2.13 order that interest be payable on any sums awarded under this Regulation for such period and at such rates as the Disciplinary Commission thinks fit.


Remedies
101.1 The League Arbitration Panel shall have power to:
101.1.1 determine any question of law or fact arising in the course of the arbitration;
101.1.2 determine any question as to its own jurisdiction;
101.1.3 make a declaration as to any matter to be determined in the proceedings;
101.1.4 order the payment of a sum of money;
101.1.5 award simple or compound interest;
101.1.6 order a party to do or refrain from doing anything;
101.1.7 order specific performance of a contract (other than a contract relating to land);
101.1.8 order the rectification, setting aside or cancellation of a deed or other document.


They can do anything they think is fit

[Snowflake Royal]

With the EFL's existing powers, points deductions are the only effective tool available. It definitely needs a bigger political conversation about how we regulate the game.

That's probably true although football fans being what they are if a middle-eastern oil nation took over RFC I would suspect any other worries would soon be forgotten in the rush to buy Arab head dresses to wear to the next game.

The problem with the EFL points deductions are that they appear to be predicated on the belief that the owner of a club is as invested as the ardent fans/supporters are.

Clearly that isn't the case with regards to Reading FC so the premise falls.

I keep seeing this comment about how fans would be happy if someone rich bought us - but up until recently money wasn't the problem. Remember that Dai spent an absolutely ridiculous amount of money before the EFL intervened. We're in this position due to overspending, not underspending.

What the club desperately needs is not money, it's competency. Ok. . .ok . . .the individual does need to have a certain amount of money for the club to stabilise and then prosper - but given the choice between a Saudi with $4bn to spend and someone like Mike Ashley who wants to put in £50m tops, I'd go with Ashley.

Some fans will be happy regardless. But some fans are still maling excuses for Dai.

This is always brought up as if its a sign of hypocracy, ignoring the fact that it's largely different groups of fans.

[windermereROYAL]

I`m wondering that now the EFL have got their teeth into Dai that we may get a bit of leeway if wages are not paid again.
After all it all falls on his shoulders.however HMRC could be an entirely different story though.