#SellBeforeWeDai Action/Inaction Group

[Snowflake Royal]

"We" are not serial offenders. HE is a serial offender. They are punishing fans, background employees, and players, and their decisions are making his decisions have even darker consequences for the club and those people behind the scenes. They are failing their responsibility to those people, just as much as Dai is.

The owners and directors test has been in place since 2004, so they have had almost 20 years to improve it or replace it with a system to actually protect clubs. They have failed to do so.

Sorry, but you and they don't get to just excuse their gross incompetence after this continually keeps happening to club after club under their watch.

They need to reform or this independent regulatory body that is coming need to make them face consequences for their continued failures.

The club is the serial offender through Dai's actions.

How do you propose the FL punish Dai? They have no remit or power to do so.

The fans are not being punished. The club is being punished. Because it is a cheat.

[Hound]

So we haven't blown FFP out of the water, haven't broken promises made to the EFL, haven't agreed to conditions knowing full well we won't stick to them and consistently paid HMRC on time?

We haven't abided by the rules and we haven't always paid wages in full on time. Tax and NI also constitute part of the wage. We've been under some sort of transfer embargo for the last 4 years and taken the piss every time they've slackened the reigns. Personally, I'd put failure to pay HMRC at the very top end of seriousness in all this mess.

At the end of the day, the EFL is a private club and membership depends on abiding by the rules of the club. We can't complain.

We've already had punishment for previous transgressions, that's history so draw a line under it. The only outstanding issue is the fine for Dai.

It's not in the EFL remit to say how we pay or don't pay our tax, or anyone else for that matter.

I did wonder on this - it seems a bit unprecedented

Surely the winding up order IS the punishment for not paying the tax?

I mean they’ll liquidate the club if we don’t pay, far more of a deterrent than EFL handing us another 4 point penalty

[tmesis]

We don't know how serious Dai actually is with this process. From what I've heard he just asks for a ridiculous amount every time.

We should keep up the disruption until the sale goes through. Nothing is more important right now

It's getting all a bit half-hearted though, and it's stopped making any sort of impression in the media.

It will get to the point where we will get games abandoned, and docked points, which will make staying up harder if someone does take over.

It was only Saturday where there was media presence and attention for the march ffs

The march, yes. Tennis balls? Nobody cares any more.

[Hound]

It's getting all a bit half-hearted though, and it's stopped making any sort of impression in the media.

It will get to the point where we will get games abandoned, and docked points, which will make staying up harder if someone does take over.

It was only Saturday where there was media presence and attention for the march ffs

The march, yes. Tennis balls? Nobody cares any more.

Tbh I think it lost a fair amount of legitimacy the minute they stopped throwing them when we went a goal up

If they’d got the game abandoned when we were winning - now that would be a powerful message to send. Otherwise it’s just a bit of a tantrum

[Silver Fox]

The kids are talking about getting the rovers game abandoned, the only thing that will achieve is getting 1871 shut down.

Idiots gonna idiot

[Stranded]

"We" are not serial offenders. HE is a serial offender. They are punishing fans, background employees, and players, and their decisions are making his decisions have even darker consequences for the club and those people behind the scenes. They are failing their responsibility to those people, just as much as Dai is.

The owners and directors test has been in place since 2004, so they have had almost 20 years to improve it or replace it with a system to actually protect clubs. They have failed to do so.

Sorry, but you and they don't get to just excuse their gross incompetence after this continually keeps happening to club after club under their watch.

They need to reform or this independent regulatory body that is coming need to make them face consequences for their continued failures.

The club is the serial offender through Dai's actions.

How do you propose the FL punish Dai? They have no remit or power to do so.

The fans are not being punished. The club is being punished. Because it is a cheat.

Sadly this. The owner is not paying but unfortunately for us, it is The Reading Football Club Limited who are the legal entity responsible for paying wages/tax. The club, and football in general, has got itself in a stupid siutation whereby 70% or more of clubs simply cannot exist without very rich people putting money in as they wish.

In the eyes of the law and EFL rules, the club is not meeting its obligations. We all know why that it is but it doesn't change the fact that it is the club in default and under current regulations, it is the club that has to be charged and there are consequences for not meeting obligations that it signed up to,

It sucks but the only way out of this mess is to either:

a) ensure owners are obligated to put money aside each summer in a designated account to meet running costs or
b) grossly shrink the level of allowable losses so that a club can service its debt off its own back and only required moderate to know financial input from an owner. Any cash input then being a gift and not a loan.


Until that happens, or we are bought, we are fcuked and even if we are bought, we could still be screwed.

[Hound]

I guess the difficulty for a lot of fans, and myself to an extent is

Is paying tax late cheating (in sporting terms)?
Is paying wages a day late cheating?
Is not putting 125% of wages in an account cheating?

Yes realise points deductions and expulsion are about the only things the EFL has up its sleeve, but it doesn’t feel a great punishment for the crime.

[Hendo]

I guess the difficulty for a lot of fans, and myself to an extent is

Is paying tax late cheating (in sporting terms)?
Is paying wages a day late cheating?
Is not putting 125% of wages in an account cheating?

Yes realise points deductions and expulsion are about the only things the EFL has up its sleeve, but it doesn’t feel a great punishment for the crime.

Would say the following:

1) Yes, if it means paying above your means, as we seem to be doing (prioritising wages over HMRC).
2) Not for me, this does feel a bit of a stretch, as long as it is only 1 day each time. Should be sanctions against owner only for this.
3) Yes, if the reasoning is the same as 1).

[Stranded]

I guess the difficulty for a lot of fans, and myself to an extent is

Is paying tax late cheating (in sporting terms)?
Is paying wages a day late cheating?
Is not putting 125% of wages in an account cheating?

Yes realise points deductions and expulsion are about the only things the EFL has up its sleeve, but it doesn’t feel a great punishment for the crime.

The simple answer is if you have agreed to XYZ and then you don't abide to that then you leave yourself open to charges. Is it cheating, in and of itself no - but the 125% was agreed to by the club with the penalty applied which Dai, as we know now, either couldn't or had no intention in paying. However, all these issues come, pretty much as a direct result of us cheating on a massive scale by blowing the P&S rules out of the water - if we hadn't of done that then we wouldn't be here now. So even if it is cheating per se, it is a continual pattern of disregard for the rules shown by the club (owner) which needs to be dealt with under the rules.

Until the rules are changed or the structure of football is changed to truly allow separation of club and owner then, RFC have very little safe ground to stand on. Our only hope is that a deal gets agreed quickly and things are paid.

[South Coast Royal]

Taking the Reading fan hat off for the minute how do people feel about those that don't pay their taxes when the rest of us do?
Reading football club is cheating everybody by not paying, just like those bastards who cheated when falsely claiming lost income during the pandemic-they stole from us.

It always surprises me that people regard HMRC as being somehow "them"-it is not "them" it is "us" and RFC , along with anybody else who doesn't pay tax ,is thieving from us let alone from the players who have had tax deducted from their wages under the PAYE system.

It is a basic principle that individuals and companies have to pay tax-avoidance is a criminal act and a criminal should not be allowed to run a football club and soon ours won't.
In the meantime the EFL has to make an example of those that do not pay in order to stop others doing it and the only instrument it has is for deduction of points.

So far I don't feel that EFL has overly punished us.
Whether a football regulator will instigate a different system who knows but with ownership of football clubs being in the hands of so many spivs, non residents and foreign countries any system will be difficult to implement in trying to make the running of the game fair and clean.

As for RFC and its future the sooner we get some kind of final deduction of points rather than ongoing uncertainty the better and presumably that means a new owner within weeks rather than months.
So come on Mike Ashley get it done.

[Hound]

Don’t think anyone is excusing the non payment of tax. It’s a disgrace, esp as it seems to be a predetermined position by Dai only to pay it when he has to/can be arsed

Honestly think it’s one for HMrC to sort out not the EFL though. And they have done so with the winding up order

[Forbury Lion]

Rumour is Mike Ashley became interested in Reading after seeing the sales figures for Sports Direct stores in the local area sky rocket off the back of tennis ball sales. If this is true (it isn't), then well done to the organisers.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

Don’t think anyone is excusing the non payment of tax. It’s a disgrace, esp as it seems to be a predetermined position by Dai only to pay it when he has to/can be arsed

Honestly think it’s one for HMrC to sort out not the EFL though. And they have done so with the winding up order

I'm going to use that proverbial saying but, if this was anyone else in any other industry they'd be close to a prison sentence by now, let alone an EFL hearing.

[Sutekh]

Don’t think anyone is excusing the non payment of tax. It’s a disgrace, esp as it seems to be a predetermined position by Dai only to pay it when he has to/can be arsed

Honestly think it’s one for HMrC to sort out not the EFL though. And they have done so with the winding up order

I'm going to use that proverbial saying but, if this was anyone else in any other industry they'd be close to a prison sentence by now, let alone an EFL hearing.

All tax is theft though

[Lower West]

I guess the difficulty for a lot of fans, and myself to an extent is

Is paying tax late cheating (in sporting terms)?
Is paying wages a day late cheating?
Is not putting 125% of wages in an account cheating?

Yes realise points deductions and expulsion are about the only things the EFL has up its sleeve, but it doesn’t feel a great punishment for the crime.

If an owner is gambling the entire future of the football club on promotion to the Premier League. Then yes. Owners have to realise that there are serious consequences if it doesn't pay off. Non payment has been caused by financial mismanagement over an extended period of time. Doesn't suddenly just happen overnight. There'll be decisions made at every turn. Many in attempt to save the sinking ship. Realism gets thrown out the window in desperation.

[Hound]

I guess the difficulty for a lot of fans, and myself to an extent is

Is paying tax late cheating (in sporting terms)?
Is paying wages a day late cheating?
Is not putting 125% of wages in an account cheating?

Yes realise points deductions and expulsion are about the only things the EFL has up its sleeve, but it doesn’t feel a great punishment for the crime.

If an owner is gambling the entire future of the football club on promotion to the Premier League. Then yes. Owners have to realise that there are serious consequences if it doesn't pay off. Non payment has been caused by financial mismanagement over an extended period of time. Doesn't suddenly just happen overnight.

Guess part of the question here is how and whether this should be related to the well deserved points penalty for overspending

It’s different breaches by the same owner but is the non payment of tax now due to the ridiculous overspending period? Not sure it is directly

[Snowflake Royal]

I guess the difficulty for a lot of fans, and myself to an extent is

Is paying tax late cheating (in sporting terms)?
YES - because we're spending more than we can afford. What isn't going on tax is going elsewhere.
Is paying wages a day late cheating?
YES - we're breaching contracts and the FL is also there to protect players and staff
Is not putting 125% of wages in an account cheating?
NO - but that was only a requirement we agreed to, to reduce the sanction for the offences we'd already commited. We didn't comply, so that suspension is cancelled.
Yes realise points deductions and expulsion are about the only things the EFL has up its sleeve, but it doesn’t feel a great punishment for the crime.

[Snowflake Royal]

Don’t think anyone is excusing the non payment of tax. It’s a disgrace, esp as it seems to be a predetermined position by Dai only to pay it when he has to/can be arsed

Honestly think it’s one for HMrC to sort out not the EFL though. And they have done so with the winding up order

If you want to leave it to HMRC, they'll just wind up any club that doesn't pay.

[windermereROYAL]

Don’t think anyone is excusing the non payment of tax. It’s a disgrace, esp as it seems to be a predetermined position by Dai only to pay it when he has to/can be arsed

Honestly think it’s one for HMrC to sort out not the EFL though. And they have done so with the winding up order

If you want to leave it to HMRC, they'll just wind up any club that doesn't pay.

And it`s not a winding up order.

[Hound]

Don’t think anyone is excusing the non payment of tax. It’s a disgrace, esp as it seems to be a predetermined position by Dai only to pay it when he has to/can be arsed

Honestly think it’s one for HMrC to sort out not the EFL though. And they have done so with the winding up order

If you want to leave it to HMRC, they'll just wind up any club that doesn't pay.

They’ll do that on top of any points penalty anyway