Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

[WestYorksRoyal]

Say that Man City were found guilty of the FFP violations - and that the offence was so bad that somehow they get relegated to League Two for the start of next season (this is just a hypothetical thing).

Would Man City now be worth £5m? No, for obvious reasons.

Similarly, if Reading get relegated to League Two they wouldn't automatically be only worth £5m. The relegation would reduce the value, but ultimately it would be based on the future prospects of the club.

The club has no future prospects.

Value is based almost exclusively around the division you play in.

So Reading and Morecambe would be worth the same?

[YorkshireRoyal99]

The club has no future prospects.

Value is based almost exclusively around the division you play in.

I don't think this is true - the value of the club is based on the value of assets the club has, in our case we've got a (estimate) £25m stadium for instance. I'd absolutely if we were worth/valued at £5m, as that would be absolute steal for any prospective owner.

The value will decrease going down the divisions, but not to such levels, it's got to be on a club-by-club basis.

It really isn't. And our stadium is worth less than oxf*rd all without a club.

But if we were in League Two then we would have a club so...

[WestYorksRoyal]

Sod all this. I'm off to download football manager so I can enter an alternative reality where we get bought out quickly and none of this shit happens. Can also ditch 4222 too. See you in the Premier League.

Can you stream it too? Bound to be a better watch.

And set up a fans forum where we can have a poll on whether you should be sacked or not?!

Quick update - I've won 6 out of 6 in the league. No cheating. Smith, Mukairo and Azeez are on fire. Azeez wants to leave and will probably go on a free at the end of the season, but I still rejected Bristol City's deadline day bid because we're under embargo and can't sign a replacement. I think of all the unrealistic aspects, being disappointed about losing Azeez is surely top.

Hutchinson has the most bookings in the team despite only starting a few games.

[From Despair To Where?]

The club has no future prospects.

Value is based almost exclusively around the division you play in.

I don't think this is true - the value of the club is based on the value of assets the club has, in our case we've got a (estimate) £25m stadium for instance. I'd absolutely if we were worth/valued at £5m, as that would be absolute steal for any prospective owner.

The value will decrease going down the divisions, but not to such levels, it's got to be on a club-by-club basis.

It really isn't. And our stadium is worth less than oxf*rd all without a club.

A 25,000 seat stadium is a liability if you're only getting 6,000 in League 2. You have pretty much the same fixed costs associated with it regardless of what League you're in.

I used to work with the old Bradford chairman around the time Parky was manager and they rented out their executive boxes as managed office space to try to cover costs.

[Forbury Lion]

Say that Man City were found guilty of the FFP violations - and that the offence was so bad that somehow they get relegated to League Two for the start of next season (this is just a hypothetical thing).

Would Man City now be worth £5m? No, for obvious reasons.

Similarly, if Reading get relegated to League Two they wouldn't automatically be only worth £5m. The relegation would reduce the value, but ultimately it would be based on the future prospects of the club.

The club has no future prospects.

Value is based almost exclusively around the division you play in.

I don't think this is true - the value of the club is based on the value of assets the club has, in our case we've got a (estimate) £25m stadium for instance. I'd absolutely if we were worth/valued at £5m, as that would be absolute steal for any prospective owner.

The value will decrease going down the divisions, but not to such levels, it's got to be on a club-by-club basis.

The Net Book value of the club is the value of it's assets less it's liabilities. If the owner wants to sell they may accept a bid lower than this, otherwise generally they will not. In our case, the debt is significant and the club has no player assets to show for it because they either bought duds or the players left on a free.

The buyer will do the maths, If they feel they can add value to company and increase it's value by £100m then they might be prepared to offer say £50m over the Net Book Value to persuade the owner to sell because they will still make £50m by running it better/growing/building the brand etc. This is where we as a club may be worth more than other league one/two teams who are above us in the table.

[WestYorksRoyal]

I don't think this is true - the value of the club is based on the value of assets the club has, in our case we've got a (estimate) £25m stadium for instance. I'd absolutely if we were worth/valued at £5m, as that would be absolute steal for any prospective owner.

The value will decrease going down the divisions, but not to such levels, it's got to be on a club-by-club basis.

It really isn't. And our stadium is worth less than oxf*rd all without a club.

A 25,000 seat stadium is a liability if you're only getting 6,000 in League 2. You have pretty much the same fixed costs associated with it regardless of what League you're in.

I used to work with the old Bradford chairman around the time Parky was manager and they rented out their executive boxes as managed office space to try to cover costs.

With a new owner we'd still bring in 12k + every week imho.

[From Despair To Where?]

In League 2? I doubt it, we're barely getting that in League 1 this season and that's with a couple of the larger away followings having already visited.

Even then. 12,000 doesn't cover costs which was my whole point. A 24,000 seat stadium is only an asset if you're close to filling it on a regular basis.

[Clyde1998]

Can you stream it too? Bound to be a better watch.

And set up a fans forum where we can have a poll on whether you should be sacked or not?!

Quick update - I've won 6 out of 6 in the league. No cheating. Smith, Mukairo and Azeez are on fire. Azeez wants to leave and will probably go on a free at the end of the season, but I still rejected Bristol City's deadline day bid because we're under embargo and can't sign a replacement. I think of all the unrealistic aspects, being disappointed about losing Azeez is surely top.

Hutchinson has the most bookings in the team despite only starting a few games.

I won the league in my first season, despite collapsing towards the end of the season (Pld 46; W30; D7; L9; GF 137; GA 68; Pts 93). Proceeded to finish third in the Championship, before losing to a stoppage time wonder-goal in the play-off final (Pld 46; W25; D6; L15; GF 126; GA 91; Pts 81). Currently in a five-way promotion battle in late-January, whilst having a League Cup final on the horizon. Spent a grand total of £5.75k on transfers in that time (and that was a loan fee).

Might be a little unrealistic...

[WestYorksRoyal]

And set up a fans forum where we can have a poll on whether you should be sacked or not?!

Quick update - I've won 6 out of 6 in the league. No cheating. Smith, Mukairo and Azeez are on fire. Azeez wants to leave and will probably go on a free at the end of the season, but I still rejected Bristol City's deadline day bid because we're under embargo and can't sign a replacement. I think of all the unrealistic aspects, being disappointed about losing Azeez is surely top.

Hutchinson has the most bookings in the team despite only starting a few games.

I won the league in my first season, despite collapsing towards the end of the season (Pld 46; W30; D7; L9; GF 137; GA 68; Pts 93). Proceeded to finish third in the Championship, before losing to a stoppage time wonder-goal in the play-off final (Pld 46; W25; D6; L15; GF 126; GA 91; Pts 81). Currently in a five-way promotion battle in late-January, whilst having a League Cup final on the horizon. Spent a grand total of £5.75k on transfers in that time (and that was a loan fee).

Might be a little unrealistic...

Even in that dream world Reading still lose play off finals. All in for a team that scores 126 goals and concedes 91.

[Hound]

Can you stream it too? Bound to be a better watch.

And set up a fans forum where we can have a poll on whether you should be sacked or not?!

Quick update - I've won 6 out of 6 in the league. No cheating. Smith, Mukairo and Azeez are on fire. Azeez wants to leave and will probably go on a free at the end of the season, but I still rejected Bristol City's deadline day bid because we're under embargo and can't sign a replacement. I think of all the unrealistic aspects, being disappointed about losing Azeez is surely top.

Hutchinson has the most bookings in the team despite only starting a few games.

Refusing bids for a player shortly out of contract who will leave on a free?

You sound like Dai

[WestYorksRoyal]

In League 2? I doubt it, we're barely getting that in League 1 this season and that's with a couple of the larger away followings having already visited.

Even then. 12,000 doesn't cover costs which was my whole point. A 24,000 seat stadium is only an asset if you're close to filling it on a regular basis.

I think get a new owner in, bring back a feelgood factor and you'll see people come no matter what level. But I get the overall point that our infrastructure and facilities go from being a strength to a millstone.

It is basically impossible to make money out of us or achieve very much in L2. The club has a lot of potential; if you want to be our next SJM and invest to take us from L2 to the top of the Championship, it can be a great investment.

If you're not willing to do that, what's the point? A lower league club with a white elephant which will realistically never be sustainable and so is probably worth £1. So the value really is in the eye of the beholder.

[Clyde1998]

In League 2? I doubt it, we're barely getting that in League 1 this season and that's with a couple of the larger away followings having already visited.

Even then. 12,000 doesn't cover costs which was my whole point. A 24,000 seat stadium is only an asset if you're close to filling it on a regular basis.

I think get a new owner in, bring back a feelgood factor and you'll see people come no matter what level. But I get the overall point that our infrastructure and facilities go from being a strength to a millstone.

It is basically impossible to make money out of us or achieve very much in L2. The club has a lot of potential; if you want to be our next SJM and invest to take us from L2 to the top of the Championship, it can be a great investment.

If you're not willing to do that, what's the point? A lower league club with a white elephant which will realistically never be sustainable and so is probably worth £1. So the value really is in the eye of the beholder.

Typically attendance (of home fans) is largely based on the level success of the team - regardless of division. This is why our attendances this season are roughly what they've been for the past few years in the Championship once discounting for away fans. The only exception to this is when the club is in the top flight - where attendances are largely static regardless of success.

Sustained success or failure would positively and negatively affect attendances over the longer term - through gaining and losing supporters (typically children). I think we're still in a situation where relative success would return a decent number of supporters who've decided it's not worth going whilst the performances on the pitch aren't great.

A major factor in our value relative to an average L1/L2 club is the fact we've got the infrastructure in place to be a stable Championship club, whereas a club like Gillingham would require a new stadium and training facilities to realistically sustain that level - which would cost a new owner money.

[under the tin]

Say that Man City were found guilty of the FFP violations - and that the offence was so bad that somehow they get relegated to League Two for the start of next season (this is just a hypothetical thing).

Would Man City now be worth £5m? No, for obvious reasons.

Similarly, if Reading get relegated to League Two they wouldn't automatically be only worth £5m. The relegation would reduce the value, but ultimately it would be based on the future prospects of the club.

The club has no future prospects.

Value is based almost exclusively around the division you play in.

So Reading and Morecambe would be worth the same?

Darlington have a (slightly) bigger arena than the MadStad, worth ?

[Norfolk Royal]

Have noticed quite a few people coalescing around the idea that going into administration could be an outcome, although bad for minor creditors and points deduction, may be the only way in the short term to preserve EFL status. If the theory that Ashley is awaiting that outcome he then moves in and we start to rebuild.

As I understand it HMRC cannot put the club into administration although they would end up as the preferred creditor.

It is only the directors of the company or another creditor who can put the club into administration.

Who the other creditors are I don’t know but if going into administration is the best option, then is it viable that SCL who seem to have the best interests of the club at heart, could come into the equation?

If it is the case that SCL has paid wages etc as many people seem to think, they could call back one of their loans or debts owed by the club, thus forcing us into administration and saving the club from liquidation. Just a thought.

[Snowflake Royal]

Say that Man City were found guilty of the FFP violations - and that the offence was so bad that somehow they get relegated to League Two for the start of next season (this is just a hypothetical thing).

Would Man City now be worth £5m? No, for obvious reasons.

Similarly, if Reading get relegated to League Two they wouldn't automatically be only worth £5m. The relegation would reduce the value, but ultimately it would be based on the future prospects of the club.

The club has no future prospects.

Value is based almost exclusively around the division you play in.

So Reading and Morecambe would be worth the same?

Did I say all L1 clubs are worth the same and all L2 clubs are worth the same?

I did not.

[Snowflake Royal]

Have noticed quite a few people coalescing around the idea that going into administration could be an outcome, although bad for minor creditors and points deduction, may be the only way in the short term to preserve EFL status. If the theory that Ashley is awaiting that outcome he then moves in and we start to rebuild.

As I understand it HMRC cannot put the club into administration although they would end up as the preferred creditor.

It is only the directors of the company or another creditor who can put the club into administration.

Who the other creditors are I don’t know but if going into administration is the best option, then is it viable that SCL who seem to have the best interests of the club at heart, could come into the equation?

If it is the case that SCL has paid wages etc as many people seem to think, they could call back one of their loans or debts owed by the club, thus forcing us into administration and saving the club from liquidation. Just a thought.

I know almost nothing about finances, but haven't you just contradicted yourself?

[Franchise FC]

The club has no future prospects.

Value is based almost exclusively around the division you play in.

I don't think this is true - the value of the club is based on the value of assets the club has, in our case we've got a (estimate) £25m stadium for instance. I'd absolutely if we were worth/valued at £5m, as that would be absolute steal for any prospective owner.

The value will decrease going down the divisions, but not to such levels, it's got to be on a club-by-club basis.

The Net Book value of the club is the value of it's assets less it's liabilities. If the owner wants to sell they may accept a bid lower than this, otherwise generally they will not. In our case, the debt is significant and the club has no player assets to show for it because they either bought duds or the players left on a free.

The buyer will do the maths, If they feel they can add value to company and increase it's value by £100m then they might be prepared to offer say £50m over the Net Book Value to persuade the owner to sell because they will still make £50m by running it better/growing/building the brand etc. This is where we as a club may be worth more than other league one/two teams who are above us in the table.

The NBV is almost certainly irrelevant to any sale exercise.
It's the market value of any assets that will determine the price.

Take the example of buying an asset and developing it for say £200m
Set depreciation at, say, 5% (property assets probably only need to show c2% depending on the circumstances)
You own the asset for 5 years (to make the maths easy) and your asset then has an NBV of £150m (original cost £200m, 25% depreciation £50m)
If someone is only prepared to pay £50m then the NBV is completely irrelevant

[Norfolk Royal]

Have noticed quite a few people coalescing around the idea that going into administration could be an outcome, although bad for minor creditors and points deduction, may be the only way in the short term to preserve EFL status. If the theory that Ashley is awaiting that outcome he then moves in and we start to rebuild.

As I understand it HMRC cannot put the club into administration although they would end up as the preferred creditor.

It is only the directors of the company or another creditor who can put the club into administration.

Who the other creditors are I don’t know but if going into administration is the best option, then is it viable that SCL who seem to have the best interests of the club at heart, could come into the equation?

If it is the case that SCL has paid wages etc as many people seem to think, they could call back one of their loans or debts owed by the club, thus forcing us into administration and saving the club from liquidation. Just a thought.

I know almost nothing about finances, but haven't you just contradicted yourself?

No. Although HMRC cannot put a business or club into administration, the rules that apply automatically install HMRC as the preferred creditor should a business go into administration. If indeed HMRC are owed anything.

[Greatwesternline]

Wasn't the Thai chap who bought Leicester living around here at the time, certainly had interests at Newbury with the racing, yet somehow he and SJM seemed to never get together about the possibility. Just imagine if he'd got the gig

I do think there is a lot of revisionism going on. Yes its gone wrong. But, there is a world in which Pauno's team kept in the play offs and got promoted. I have said it a few times but when Swift came back into the side we beat Bournemouth 3-1 away handsomely and i thought this is it. Swift got injured again promptly after.

Dai did deliver on the monetary front for quite a long time. He just took rank advice on who to appoint, and what to spend the money on. We were a good director of football away from the good times.

So oxf*rd what, we've been run with hopeless incompetence. Even if we fluked a brief period of competence to get up we'd have just spunked twice the windfall on some donkey's from Europe and a couple of PL failures and been even more oxf*rd.

The so what was, comparing us to Leicester and saying how well run they are. If one or two things had gone slightly differently Dai may have got us to the PL where you really can spend what you want.

Dai sort of did his end of the bargain, lots of money. It was his footballing advisors who wasted his money. Sure he made the decisions to listen to the wrong people. If he'd got a good director of football in early doors he'd have been fine. With the money he spent plus the academy players such as olise and Richards we should have a promotion on our hands.

Oh well.

[maffff]

STAR: OUR NOTES FROM 1ST NOVEMBER 2023 MEETING WITH THE EFL

https://star-reading.org/our-notes-from ... th-the-efl