Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

[Brogue]

STAR: OUR NOTES FROM 1ST NOVEMBER 2023 MEETING WITH THE EFL

https://star-reading.org/our-notes-from ... th-the-efl

Woah woah woah. You aren’t allowed to share minutes from star meetings on here or you’ll get in big trouble.

[Lower West]

I do think there is a lot of revisionism going on. Yes its gone wrong. But, there is a world in which Pauno's team kept in the play offs and got promoted. I have said it a few times but when Swift came back into the side we beat Bournemouth 3-1 away handsomely and i thought this is it. Swift got injured again promptly after.

Dai did deliver on the monetary front for quite a long time. He just took rank advice on who to appoint, and what to spend the money on. We were a good director of football away from the good times.

So oxf*rd what, we've been run with hopeless incompetence. Even if we fluked a brief period of competence to get up we'd have just spunked twice the windfall on some donkey's from Europe and a couple of PL failures and been even more oxf*rd.

The so what was, comparing us to Leicester and saying how well run they are. If one or two things had gone slightly differently Dai may have got us to the PL where you really can spend what you want.

Dai sort of did his end of the bargain, lots of money. It was his footballing advisors who wasted his money. Sure he made the decisions to listen to the wrong people. If he'd got a good director of football in early doors he'd have been fine. With the money he spent plus the academy players such as olise and Richards we should have a promotion on our hands.

Oh well.

Dai has never made the slightest attempt to engage with the fans or the community. Always his personal game no one elses. See if he could outdo his mates that also bought clubs.

[maffff]

STAR: OUR NOTES FROM 1ST NOVEMBER 2023 MEETING WITH THE EFL

https://star-reading.org/our-notes-from ... th-the-efl

Woah woah woah. You aren’t allowed to share minutes from star meetings on here or you’ll get in big trouble.

[Sutekh]

Thanks STAR, great decision to engage with the FL over this debacle. Out of interest is there anyone within STAR who has a legal background who could advise if there is anything that business/club shareholders could do to try and compel the owner to put the club into administration rather than just have it carry on limping from one farce to another while the owner seemingly doesn't give a Castlemaine 4X?

I suspect there isn't but just want to know all the obvious options to get things sorted have been/are being explored.

[WestYorksRoyal]

Middle class Reading will have loads of access to professional expertise. Why to you SBWD has been so much more effective than the fan efforts at Sheffield Wednesday?

If there was a legal way to force Dai out, it would be being pursued. So many factors have led us to this point, but if there is one lesson for the incoming football regulator, there needs to be a way to force bad owners out. It would be a nuclear option, but we'd probably be very close to the threshold.

[Sutekh]

Middle class Reading will have loads of access to professional expertise. Why to you SBWD has been so much more effective than the fan efforts at Sheffield Wednesday?

If there was a legal way to force Dai out, it would be being pursued. So many factors have led us to this point, but if there is one lesson for the incoming football regulator, there needs to be a way to force bad owners out. It would be a nuclear option, but we'd probably be very close to the threshold.

This, there should be some way for shareholders or supporters to force a sort of "no confidence" vote when things get into a state which then forces that business into administration or some other, yet to be defined, legal process that enables whatever is independently deemed best for the club to be forced on the owner.

[PieEater]

Have noticed quite a few people coalescing around the idea that going into administration could be an outcome, although bad for minor creditors and points deduction, may be the only way in the short term to preserve EFL status. If the theory that Ashley is awaiting that outcome he then moves in and we start to rebuild.

As I understand it HMRC cannot put the club into administration although they would end up as the preferred creditor.

It is only the directors of the company or another creditor who can put the club into administration.

Who the other creditors are I don’t know but if going into administration is the best option, then is it viable that SCL who seem to have the best interests of the club at heart, could come into the equation?

If it is the case that SCL has paid wages etc as many people seem to think, they could call back one of their loans or debts owed by the club, thus forcing us into administration and saving the club from liquidation. Just a thought.

I know almost nothing about finances, but haven't you just contradicted yourself?

No. Although HMRC cannot put a business or club into administration, the rules that apply automatically install HMRC as the preferred creditor should a business go into administration. If indeed HMRC are owed anything.

As I understand it creditors go for liquidation to get their money, administration is some attempt by directors to protect the company from that to carry on in some form. So HMRC or any creditor can get us liquidated and the reaction from that should be for Dai pay the creditor or to put us into administration. Liquidation or administration he loses money but less so in administration as there is a club to sell, but should be not choose administration the club is gone and (a phoenix club) would have to start again at the bottom.

[Snowflake Royal]

Middle class Reading will have loads of access to professional expertise. Why to you SBWD has been so much more effective than the fan efforts at Sheffield Wednesday?

If there was a legal way to force Dai out, it would be being pursued. So many factors have led us to this point, but if there is one lesson for the incoming football regulator, there needs to be a way to force bad owners out. It would be a nuclear option, but we'd probably be very close to the threshold.

This, there should be some way for shareholders or supporters to force a sort of "no confidence" vote when things get into a state which then forces that business into administration or some other, yet to be defined, legal process that enables whatever is independently deemed best for the club to be forced on the owner.

Hmmm. How do you define supporters?

How do you organise the vote?

What turnout do you require?
What percentage to succeed?

How do you make that actually legal?

How do you stop rival fans signing up to force you into Admin?

How do you manage the fact fans generally don't have a clue?

[Hendo]

Middle class Reading will have loads of access to professional expertise. Why to you SBWD has been so much more effective than the fan efforts at Sheffield Wednesday?

If there was a legal way to force Dai out, it would be being pursued. So many factors have led us to this point, but if there is one lesson for the incoming football regulator, there needs to be a way to force bad owners out. It would be a nuclear option, but we'd probably be very close to the threshold.

This, there should be some way for shareholders or supporters to force a sort of "no confidence" vote when things get into a state which then forces that business into administration or some other, yet to be defined, legal process that enables whatever is independently deemed best for the club to be forced on the owner.

Hmmm. How do you define supporters? Member Card Holders

How do you organise the vote? AGM, in-person & postal ballot

What turnout do you require? 30% of members
What percentage to succeed? Simple majority or 2/3rds, probably the latter for something this big

How do you make that actually legal? Change the constitution of the club

How do you stop rival fans signing up to force you into Admin? Look at previous purchase history on bank account/post code

How do you manage the fact fans generally don't have a clue? Doesn't seem to stop the gov from calling a general election/Brexit referendum

[WestYorksRoyal]

This, there should be some way for shareholders or supporters to force a sort of "no confidence" vote when things get into a state which then forces that business into administration or some other, yet to be defined, legal process that enables whatever is independently deemed best for the club to be forced on the owner.

Hmmm. How do you define supporters? Member Card Holders

How do you organise the vote? AGM, in-person & postal ballot

What turnout do you require? 30% of members
What percentage to succeed? Simple majority or 2/3rds, probably the latter for something this big

How do you make that actually legal? Change the constitution of the club

How do you stop rival fans signing up to force you into Admin? Look at previous purchase history on bank account/post code

How do you manage the fact fans generally don't have a clue? Doesn't seem to stop the gov from calling a general election/Brexit referendum

I'd say it's very hard to administer based upon member card holders and sale history. It would need to be STAR and each club's equivalent. These would need to be strengthened and have their base broadened; advertise their power in safeguarding the club widely so fans know to join.

New legislation would need to be passed through Parliament. Currently, the proposal is almost certainly illegal. And the penalties for administration should remain. It should hurt for fans to place their own club into administration. The message for owners would be that if you fcuk things up so badly that they're willing to do it, you can have no complaints with the consequences.

I think we’re at the point where we could get a yes vote if we had the power. Whereas Utd fans who think the Glaziers are the worst owners ever...

[Forbury Lion]

Hmmm. How do you define supporters? Member Card Holders

How do you organise the vote? AGM, in-person & postal ballot

What turnout do you require? 30% of members
What percentage to succeed? Simple majority or 2/3rds, probably the latter for something this big

How do you make that actually legal? Change the constitution of the club

How do you stop rival fans signing up to force you into Admin? Look at previous purchase history on bank account/post code

How do you manage the fact fans generally don't have a clue? Doesn't seem to stop the gov from calling a general election/Brexit referendum

I'd say it's very hard to administer based upon member card holders and sale history. It would need to be STAR and each club's equivalent. These would need to be strengthened and have their base broadened; advertise their power in safeguarding the club widely so fans know to join.

New legislation would need to be passed through Parliament. Currently, the proposal is almost certainly illegal. And the penalties for administration should remain. It should hurt for fans to place their own club into administration. The message for owners would be that if you fcuk things up so badly that they're willing to do it, you can have no complaints with the consequences. I think we’re at the point where we could get a yes vote if we had the power.

If the new owners want to implement this change to the clubs constitution then they can, However that's not going to happen unless someone wants to give the club away or if the supporters trust buy and run the club then sell the franchise on licence to someone who wants to be caretaker, invest and make money from running it.

[Millsy]

I'm beginning to think all this is Dai's fault.

[Norfolk Royal]

I know almost nothing about finances, but haven't you just contradicted yourself?

No. Although HMRC cannot put a business or club into administration, the rules that apply automatically install HMRC as the preferred creditor should a business go into administration. If indeed HMRC are owed anything.

As I understand it creditors go for liquidation to get their money, administration is some attempt by directors to protect the company from that to carry on in some form. So HMRC or any creditor can get us liquidated and the reaction from that should be for Dai pay the creditor or to put us into administration. Liquidation or administration he loses money but less so in administration as there is a club to sell, but should be not choose administration the club is gone and (a phoenix club) would have to start again at the bottom.

Well, sort of. If a club or business goes into administration, the administrator who is independent of the directors or creditors, dishes out what money is left to firstly the HMRC, if they are owed, then to other creditors at usually reduced rates, ten pence in the pound for instance, so people owed at least get something.

[Snowflake Royal]

I'd say it's very hard to administer based upon member card holders and sale history. It would need to be STAR and each club's equivalent. These would need to be strengthened and have their base broadened; advertise their power in safeguarding the club widely so fans know to join.

New legislation would need to be passed through Parliament. Currently, the proposal is almost certainly illegal. And the penalties for administration should remain. It should hurt for fans to place their own club into administration. The message for owners would be that if you fcuk things up so badly that they're willing to do it, you can have no complaints with the consequences. I think we’re at the point where we could get a yes vote if we had the power.

If the new owners want to implement this change to the clubs constitution then they can, However that's not going to happen unless someone wants to give the club away or if the supporters trust buy and run the club then sell the franchise on licence to someone who wants to be caretaker, invest and make money from running it.

If an owner would be willing to do it, they wouldn’t need to do it, they'd just make the decision themselves.

I sincerely doubt a club consitution would be legally binding in that way. You'd be putting the administration of the vote in the hands of the people the fans want to oust, and what recourse do you have if they just ignore the request, or the vote?

What triggers when its called?

[CountryRoyal]

I know I’m being naive but I still can’t believe there isn’t a better way, than punishing tens of thousands of people, over the actions or inactions of 1/2 bellends.

[Snowflake Royal]

I know I’m being naive but I still can’t believe there isn’t a better way, than punishing tens of thousands of people, over the actions or inactions of 1/2 bellends.

There could be if the entire ownership model and legal founding of football had change forced on it by Government.

[Lower West]

This, there should be some way for shareholders or supporters to force a sort of "no confidence" vote when things get into a state which then forces that business into administration or some other, yet to be defined, legal process that enables whatever is independently deemed best for the club to be forced on the owner.

Ends of the day the club is a business like any other. Directors and shareholders responsibilities, duties and entitlements are enshrined in well established company law.

There's plenty of examples of clubs that have been reborn and now use a different ownership model.

[Lower West]

This, there should be some way for shareholders or supporters to force a sort of "no confidence" vote when things get into a state which then forces that business into administration or some other, yet to be defined, legal process that enables whatever is independently deemed best for the club to be forced on the owner.

Ends of the day the club is a business like any other. Directors and shareholders responsibilities, duties and entitlements are enshrined in well established company law.

There's plenty of examples of clubs that have been reborn and now use a different ownership model.

[Lower West]

I know I’m being naive but I still can’t believe there isn’t a better way, than punishing tens of thousands of people, over the actions or inactions of 1/2 bellends.

How many of those thousands of people are impatient for success? Constantly demanding that the owner spends money on new players, changing the management team because the results aren't good enough.

[leon]

I know I’m being naive but I still can’t believe there isn’t a better way, than punishing tens of thousands of people, over the actions or inactions of 1/2 bellends.

How many of those thousands of people are impatient for success? Constantly demanding that the owner spends money on new players, changing the management team because the results aren't good enough.

Of all the clubs in the UK you could level this at RFC would be low on the list. Our fan base are very passive.