#SellBeforeWeDai Action/Inaction Group

[Greatwesternline]

The mindset of the majority of supporters would need to change for that to be possible. For every few who want a club to be financially responsible and live within its means, there are a few hundred who loudly want more and more "investment" and will abuse an owner who doesn't hand over ever-larger sums to finance their hobby.

And that's fine, so long as owners deposit capital. It would show them the significance of their decisions; how much would we have needed from Dai for Moore's contract?

Yessss - but this doesn't get over the fundamental problem that the money handed over by an owner isn't handed over without strings. It goes against the company as debt, making it so much harder for anyone else to come in and reducing the overall viability of that company. A massive debt owed to an individual, even if it’s only a paper debt, is absolute dependence!

If sums given by owners could be properly given as a gift rather than as a loan or a share issue then that would make things so very much better.

Share issues don't have to be paid back. They are effectively gifts. Same for any injection of equity funding.

[Dirk Gently]

Even if there was an annual check, could they actually force an owner to sell if they subsequently failed it?

It does feel like really significant changes are needed to prevent this happening again to some other poor club

51% fan ownership, remaining 49% sold as a licence, with regular (probably not annual tbf) checks and transparent spending. Independent organisation to oversee all transfer fees and wage negotiations, with wages capped at 75% of turnover, with the ability to go over that (up to 90%) for up to two seasons, but then have to reduce to 70% for at least one season afterwards. Failure to run the club within league rules results in the licence being revoked and resold.

But football can't do this. It would be up to the Gov.

Yes. But the big problem is where do you get the money to compensate the owners for the 51% of football clubs they own, together with the massive amounts of debt attached to their club. In times of cost of living crisis, and underfunded health service and social care collapsing across the UK, what party is going to tell electors that they're spending millions if not billions to buy 51% of 92+ football clubs on behalf of their supporters?

[Dirk Gently]

And that's fine, so long as owners deposit capital. It would show them the significance of their decisions; how much would we have needed from Dai for Moore's contract?

Yessss - but this doesn't get over the fundamental problem that the money handed over by an owner isn't handed over without strings. It goes against the company as debt, making it so much harder for anyone else to come in and reducing the overall viability of that company. A massive debt owed to an individual, even if it’s only a paper debt, is absolute dependence!

If sums given by owners could be properly given as a gift rather than as a loan or a share issue then that would make things so very much better.

Share issues don't have to be paid back. They are effectively gifts. Same for any injection of equity funding.

Yes, you're right with share issues - they reduce the value of each individual share but that's not so relevant where an owner holds a near majority. But in football no-one ever treats money put in as equity funding - it almost always goes into the accounts as debt due to the owner(s).

[Snowflake Royal]

Even if there was an annual check, could they actually force an owner to sell if they subsequently failed it?

It does feel like really significant changes are needed to prevent this happening again to some other poor club

51% fan ownership, remaining 49% sold as a licence, with regular (probably not annual tbf) checks and transparent spending. Independent organisation to oversee all transfer fees and wage negotiations, with wages capped at 75% of turnover, with the ability to go over that (up to 90%) for up to two seasons, but then have to reduce to 70% for at least one season afterwards. Failure to run the club within league rules results in the licence being revoked and resold.

But football can't do this. It would be up to the Gov.

The fans don't have the money to finance losses, would other people be willing to stump up for the losses but not have overa'l control of the club?

It could work so long as the clubs have annual budgets signed off by the league. And aren't allowed to operate deficits.

No need to kick out owners if clubs aren't allowed to get into debt,

German clubs do ok.

[Snowflake Royal]

Even if there was an annual check, could they actually force an owner to sell if they subsequently failed it?

It does feel like really significant changes are needed to prevent this happening again to some other poor club

51% fan ownership, remaining 49% sold as a licence, with regular (probably not annual tbf) checks and transparent spending. Independent organisation to oversee all transfer fees and wage negotiations, with wages capped at 75% of turnover, with the ability to go over that (up to 90%) for up to two seasons, but then have to reduce to 70% for at least one season afterwards. Failure to run the club within league rules results in the licence being revoked and resold.

But football can't do this. It would be up to the Gov.

Yes. But the big problem is where do you get the money to compensate the owners for the 51% of football clubs they own, together with the massive amounts of debt attached to their club. In times of cost of living crisis, and underfunded health service and social care collapsing across the UK, what party is going to tell electors that they're spending millions if not billions to buy 51% of 92+ football clubs on behalf of their supporters?

You line them up against the wall and shoot them

[WestYorksRoyal]

Yessss - but this doesn't get over the fundamental problem that the money handed over by an owner isn't handed over without strings. It goes against the company as debt, making it so much harder for anyone else to come in and reducing the overall viability of that company. A massive debt owed to an individual, even if it’s only a paper debt, is absolute dependence!

If sums given by owners could be properly given as a gift rather than as a loan or a share issue then that would make things so very much better.

Share issues don't have to be paid back. They are effectively gifts. Same for any injection of equity funding.

Yes, you're right with share issues - they reduce the value of each individual share but that's not so relevant where an owner holds a near majority. But in football no-one ever treats money put in as equity funding - it almost always goes into the accounts as debt due to the owner(s).

Even equity can be taken out though. The difference between debt and equity can be a tiny technicality. The deposit needs to be ring fenced and administered by the authorities. If an owner wants it back, they need to cut the wage bill and demonstrate that club will not need the money.

[Forbury Lion]

Chinese Superstitions with Numbers
The number 4 is the unluckiest Chinese number because it sounds like the word for “death”. Many buildings in China don’t have a 4th floor; some skip any floors with the number, such as 14, 24, 34 and all 40–49 floors.

Therefore, many people choose to avoid the number four like the plague. It’s not uncommon to step into an elevator in China and notice that there’s no button for the 4th floor, or the 13th or 14th floor, for that matter.

Chinese people like superstitions so much that they’ve even adopted the Western superstition of the unlucky number thirteen.

#SellB4weDai

https://www.china-mike.com/facts-about- ... rstitions/

The wage bill doesn't end with a 4 does it? if so can someone take a £1 pay cut for the greater good of all

[Forbury Lion]

Chinese Superstitions with Colors
The color white is known as one of the unluckiest Chinese colors because it is associated with mourning and loss. You will oftentimes see Chinese people wearing white to funerals.

The color green can also be considered to be unlucky as it is associated with infidelity. A man wearing a green hat is said to have an unfaithful wife.

The color black is considered to be unlucky as well given its association to the darkness and secrecy. The word ‘mafia’ translates to ‘black society’ in Chinese.

https://www.china-mike.com/facts-about- ... rstitions/

[Forbury Lion]

Miscellaneous Chinese Superstitions
When giving gifts in China, it is imperative that you never give someone a clock. This is due to the fact that “giving a clock” sounds similar to “bid farewell to someone on their deathbed”. As such, giving someone a clock basically means you’re sending them off to the great beyond

While turtles are revered for their longevity in Chinese culture, they can also be a symbol of bad luck. For example, keeping a turtle as a pet may slow down your business.

Purple Turtle 3rd kit anyone?

[morganb]

With all the good vibes between port vale and ourselves at the moment, I would could a "thinking outside the box" solution to our current woes be a merger with them? An opportune moment to make the proposal anyway.

Perhaps we ask Robbie Williams to buy us?

[Greatwesternline]

51% fan ownership, remaining 49% sold as a licence, with regular (probably not annual tbf) checks and transparent spending. Independent organisation to oversee all transfer fees and wage negotiations, with wages capped at 75% of turnover, with the ability to go over that (up to 90%) for up to two seasons, but then have to reduce to 70% for at least one season afterwards. Failure to run the club within league rules results in the licence being revoked and resold.

But football can't do this. It would be up to the Gov.

The fans don't have the money to finance losses, would other people be willing to stump up for the losses but not have overa'l control of the club?

It could work so long as the clubs have annual budgets signed off by the league. And aren't allowed to operate deficits.

No need to kick out owners if clubs aren't allowed to get into debt,

German clubs do ok.

From the outside english clubs do ok. The top english clubs are in rude financial health and are economic powerhouses of world football. My knowledge of 3rd tier german football club finances is limited. I have no idea how loss making german clubs who are owned by their fans make good the losses each year.

[Sutekh]

Chinese Superstitions with Colors
The color white is known as one of the unluckiest Chinese colors because it is associated with mourning and loss. You will oftentimes see Chinese people wearing white to funerals.

The color green can also be considered to be unlucky as it is associated with infidelity. A man wearing a green hat is said to have an unfaithful wife.

The color black is considered to be unlucky as well given its association to the darkness and secrecy. The word ‘mafia’ translates to ‘black society’ in Chinese.

When is Dai's birthday? Got a great gift idea.

[Dirk Gently]

The fans don't have the money to finance losses, would other people be willing to stump up for the losses but not have overa'l control of the club?

It could work so long as the clubs have annual budgets signed off by the league. And aren't allowed to operate deficits.

No need to kick out owners if clubs aren't allowed to get into debt,

German clubs do ok.

From the outside english clubs do ok. The top english clubs are in rude financial health and are economic powerhouses of world football. My knowledge of 3rd tier german football club finances is limited. I have no idea how loss making german clubs who are owned by their fans make good the losses each year.

They don't exist, because they don't make losses. There are also laws in Germany that recognise the "specificity of sport" so that company law is different for community-owned sports clubs, and they are not bound by the identical rules as a supermarket or factory would be. That latter point is the biggest problem here, as Company Law ties the hands of football and the football authorities to do anything meaningful.

[Greatwesternline]

German clubs do ok.

From the outside english clubs do ok. The top english clubs are in rude financial health and are economic powerhouses of world football. My knowledge of 3rd tier german football club finances is limited. I have no idea how loss making german clubs who are owned by their fans make good the losses each year.

They don't exist, because they don't make losses. There are also laws in Germany that recognise the "specificity of sport" so that company law is different for community-owned sports clubs, and they are not bound by the identical rules as a supermarket or factory would be. That latter point is the biggest problem here, as Company Law ties the hands of football and the football authorities to do anything meaningful.

https://gameofthepeople.com/2022/10/21/robust-bayern-munich-stay-in-profit/

This suggests lots of german clubs make losses

[WestYorksRoyal]

From the outside english clubs do ok. The top english clubs are in rude financial health and are economic powerhouses of world football. My knowledge of 3rd tier german football club finances is limited. I have no idea how loss making german clubs who are owned by their fans make good the losses each year.

They don't exist, because they don't make losses. There are also laws in Germany that recognise the "specificity of sport" so that company law is different for community-owned sports clubs, and they are not bound by the identical rules as a supermarket or factory would be. That latter point is the biggest problem here, as Company Law ties the hands of football and the football authorities to do anything meaningful.

https://gameofthepeople.com/2022/10/21/robust-bayern-munich-stay-in-profit/

This suggests lots of german clubs make losses

The counter argument is that the division is so lopsided that your average football manager player could win the Bundesliga with Bayern in real life.

But I have to be honest and say that's secondary to me now. If we have regulations that bake in the advantage of the 6 or 7 biggest clubs but protect the entire pyramid, that's fine by me.

[Greatwesternline]

They don't exist, because they don't make losses. There are also laws in Germany that recognise the "specificity of sport" so that company law is different for community-owned sports clubs, and they are not bound by the identical rules as a supermarket or factory would be. That latter point is the biggest problem here, as Company Law ties the hands of football and the football authorities to do anything meaningful.

https://gameofthepeople.com/2022/10/21/robust-bayern-munich-stay-in-profit/

This suggests lots of german clubs make losses

The counter argument is that the division is so lopsided that your average football manager player could win the Bundesliga with Bayern in real life.

But I have to be honest and say that's secondary to me now. If we have regulations that bake in the advantage of the 6 or 7 biggest clubs but protect the entire pyramid, that's fine by me.

Also Aston Villa and Leicester show that occasionally cheaply assembled sides can compete. West Ham won a European trophy last year. If all the prem clubs couldnt make a loss it would be a lot more even than what we have with state owned clubs having unlimited losses.

FTR though Dortmund went into the last round of matches only needing to win their own match to be champions. The screwed up.

[Franchise FC]

The mindset of the majority of supporters would need to change for that to be possible. For every few who want a club to be financially responsible and live within its means, there are a few hundred who loudly want more and more "investment" and will abuse an owner who doesn't hand over ever-larger sums to finance their hobby.

And that's fine, so long as owners deposit capital. It would show them the significance of their decisions; how much would we have needed from Dai for Moore's contract?

Yessss - but this doesn't get over the fundamental problem that the money handed over by an owner isn't handed over without strings. It goes against the company as debt, making it so much harder for anyone else to come in and reducing the overall viability of that company. A massive debt owed to an individual, even if it’s only a paper debt, is absolute dependence!

If sums given by owners could be properly given as a gift rather than as a loan or a share issue then that would make things so very much better.

So legislate that money from the owner MUST be presented as capital, not debt. Therefore, they can only get ANY money out would be by selling the shares

[Franchise FC]

Chinese Superstitions with Numbers
The number 4 is the unluckiest Chinese number because it sounds like the word for “death”. Many buildings in China don’t have a 4th floor; some skip any floors with the number, such as 14, 24, 34 and all 40–49 floors.

Therefore, many people choose to avoid the number four like the plague. It’s not uncommon to step into an elevator in China and notice that there’s no button for the 4th floor, or the 13th or 14th floor, for that matter.

Chinese people like superstitions so much that they’ve even adopted the Western superstition of the unlucky number thirteen.

#SellB4weDai

https://www.china-mike.com/facts-about- ... rstitions/

The wage bill doesn't end with a 4 does it? if so can someone take a £1 pay cut for the greater good of all

Tell him that if we go down we’ll be in the 4th tier

[PieEater]

Nice email from the Port Vale statue guy

Dear Royals,
thank you all for supporting our Statue Fund. Your contributions (in only a couple of days) have topped £5000!
We are so thankful that you have chosen to acknowledge our support for your cause in this way, it means a great deal.
The Rudge family were amazed when I told them yesterday that you'd collectively donated over £2,000 - I almost daren't update them!
John Rudge himself, is a really humble, modest man (when we first launched the idea of his statue, he claimed he didn't deserve one) I think he's slowly beginning to realise how much he means to Vale fans, but to Stoke fans (he went there as Director of Football after our then owner sacked him - he stayed 14 years - he was with the Vale for 19) and the football community in general (some of you have commented about the respect he commands).
He's written his story "To Cap it All" which covers his playing career through to the present day as club President.
He tells it well, with humour and pretty stark honesty, well worth a read.
It's available on www.tocapitall.co.uk
if you're interested.
As you're probably aware, Vale went through their own 'ownership crisis' a few years back. Fortunately, we got a very happy resolution when the Shanahan family stepped in preventing our previous owner putting us in Administration (again). So we feel your anxiety.
Best wishes to you in your struggle, I think you've certainly got the football world to notice!
It's a privilege to have contact with such passionate fans, we hope you prevail.
Thank you once more for your fantastic support of our project, it's going to look amazing!
Phil Potts
Treasurer
John Rudge Statue Fund

[windermereROYAL]

It`s over £84k now, how much does a statue cost for goodness sake?