England v Slovenia

[Royal Rother]

No, no you’re right.

Saka, a player playing at the highest level, shouldn’t be doing better against a 31 year old bloke from an obscure Polish side, because he might have access to a decent gym.

That’s a weak excuse.

Saka in whatever league he plays in will have a year+ of games to work out with his team mates how to get around a parked bus. England and Southgate have 0.

Palmer managed it in 15 minutes.

[St Pauli]

he might have access to a decent gym.

That’s a weak excuse.

It’s less that, it’s more ‘if you want to do well in football, you need to cut out fags, booze and bad food, and eat well.’ In the hay day of Western European teams winning games easily, the eastern culture was much more relaxed about booze, fags etc.

Shit even St Pauli had a bundesliga player who ran on the pitch with a pack of fags in his sock, in the 90s.

[St Pauli]

No, no you’re right.

Saka, a player playing at the highest level, shouldn’t be doing better against a 31 year old bloke from an obscure Polish side, because he might have access to a decent gym.

That’s a weak excuse.

Saka in whatever league he plays in will have a year+ of games to work out with his team mates how to get around a parked bus. England and Southgate have 0.

Palmer managed it in 15 minutes.

Not enough to score a goal. So not really.

[URZZZZ]

No, no you’re right.

Saka, a player playing at the highest level, shouldn’t be doing better against a 31 year old bloke from an obscure Polish side, because he might have access to a decent gym.

That’s a weak excuse.

Saka in whatever league he plays in will have a year+ of games to work out with his team mates how to get around a parked bus. England and Southgate have 0.

Not 0 but sympathise with the point

All the players are a success at club level as they fit into a bigger picture which doesn’t necessarily translate to international level. Simply put, there’s a mismatch of players amalgamated from different setups

Not deflecting Southgate of the blame mind. Tonight was a chance to adjust the system/personnel and he didn’t. 90 minutes wasted and we go into the knockouts with another decision whether to stick or twist without much of an idea of what needs changing

[Sutekh]

Patronising b/llocks.

It’s just one bloke vs another bloke.

And modern fitness routines available cheaply anywhere have reduced the gap between the ‘big’ and ‘little’ football teams.

Christ. I get a lot of you on here just like to argue because you're bored, but at least put a bit of effort in.

Why do you think England should be automatically better than Slovenia?

The main reason is historical precedent. Well at the rate of change in the modern world, and the relative ease (and cheapness) with which you bring a squad of footballers up to an international fitness standard these days, the historical precedent is meaningless. The resulting ‘narrow margins’ which is what all professional sport is about these days, are completely nullified by a team logically aiming to draw 3 games to ‘succeed’.

Where else in football does intentionally drawing all your games get you anywhere? In league football it ends with you in the relegation zone or thereabouts.

In cup football it gets you at best, through two rounds.

The modern 3rd place lifeline euros completely upends standard football logic.

As with all international football these days you have to have safety nets to catch the incompetents as it's obviously unfair to have sides going out of competitions just because they're not very good.

[Sutekh]

Something stinks about England, seems a wealth of attacking players lose all sign of being that when they turn up to play. Southgate's "safeball" is possibly stifling all the good things of their games out of them thus the utterly **** performances so far. Would explain why newer squad members like Palmer showed something "entertaining" last night, but don't worry he'll quickly learn.

Or perhaps it's just that all English players are actually **** and only made to look half decent by having a load of proper players around them at club level together with management that have a bit of nous.

[Sutekh]

Slovenia's right back plays for Gornik Zabrze. There are no excuses

Patronising b/llocks.

It’s just one bloke vs another bloke.

And modern fitness routines available cheaply anywhere have reduced the gap between the ‘big’ and ‘little’ football teams.

Yes, obviously Mo Salah v Clinton Mola or Sadio Mane v Andy Yiadom would be an even match

Looking forward to England's new policy of selecting lower division players as it's just 11 v 11.

[WestYorksRoyal]

Something stinks about England, seems a wealth of attacking players lose all sign of being that when they turn up to play. Southgate's "safeball" is possibly stifling all the good things of their games out of them thus the utterly **** performances so far. Would explain why newer squad members like Palmer showed something "entertaining" last night, but don't worry he'll quickly learn.

Or perhaps it's just that all English players are actually **** and only made to look half decent by having a load of proper players around them at club level together with management that have a bit of nous.

It's worse than just safe ball. In previous tournament website looked good going forward at times and have chosen to be more cautious with a lead. Whereas this time we simply haven't clicked. We don't know our best midfield, though Mainoo did well and may have solved that. We don't have clear patterns of play in attacking areas and don't have the right blend of playmakers and runners in behind. We're not choosing not to attack - we're incapable of it.

At least we remain defensively strong. We've conceded 1 in 3 and it was a 25 yard belter. I actually think we could limp on quite a long way.

[Royal Rother]

Slovenia's right back plays for Gornik Zabrze. There are no excuses

Patronising b/llocks.

It’s just one bloke vs another bloke.

And modern fitness routines available cheaply anywhere have reduced the gap between the ‘big’ and ‘little’ football teams.

Yes, obviously Mo Salah v Clinton Mola or Sadio Mane v Andy Yiadom would be an even match

Looking forward to England's new policy of selecting lower division players as it's just 11 v 11.

I think that’s a TKO right there.

[St Pauli]

Patronising b/llocks.

It’s just one bloke vs another bloke.

And modern fitness routines available cheaply anywhere have reduced the gap between the ‘big’ and ‘little’ football teams.

Yes, obviously Mo Salah v Clinton Mola or Sadio Mane v Andy Yiadom would be an even match

Looking forward to England's new policy of selecting lower division players as it's just 11 v 11.

I think that’s a TKO right there.

Clearly they are a pretty even match.

As England drew 0:0 with them.

[Loafer]

Christ this is weak sauce from St p

[Royal Rother]

Or perhaps it's just that all English players are actually **** and only made to look half decent by having a load of proper players around them at club level together with management that have a bit of nous.

Vic has been saying this for ages, and while there is something in it, it is pretty extraordinary that Southgate has managed to make our generational talent Jude Bellingham look like a very ordinary player.

But as you suggest in your comment re Palmer, he does it to all our exciting players over time.

[Franchise FC]

I think you’ll find Bellingham made Bellingham look poor

How can a positional change solve the problem of not being able to control a ball properly or not being able to make a 10 yard pass accurately ?

Southgate may set them up to be cautious, but the fact that they can’t pass and don’t seem to want to move is 100% down to the players

[Snowflake Royal]

No, no you’re right.

Saka, a player playing at the highest level, shouldn’t be doing better against a 31 year old bloke from an obscure Polish side, because he might have access to a decent gym.

That’s a weak excuse.

St Pauli is quickly turning into a parody trollof himself.

[Snowflake Royal]

Something stinks about England, seems a wealth of attacking players lose all sign of being that when they turn up to play. Southgate's "safeball" is possibly stifling all the good things of their games out of them thus the utterly **** performances so far. Would explain why newer squad members like Palmer showed something "entertaining" last night, but don't worry he'll quickly learn.

Or perhaps it's just that all English players are actually **** and only made to look half decent by having a load of proper players around them at club level together with management that have a bit of nous.

Perhaps there's a reason Southgate stuck with players like Maguire, Henderson, Rashford, Sterling etc for so long, and its because they gave a shit and bought into what he was doing.

Because the current lot sure don't look like they care or buy in.

The second England have a group of genuinely class players it becomes all about crowbarring the i dividuals in and team work dies.

They were all arguing and blaming each other last night. There no balance to the side and they've putin sod all effort.

They're playing badly and it doesn't matter whether it's job done so far. That sort of insipid play is self perpetuating.

This England side was all about great attacking talent and a weak defence. Well the attack is a shambles and the defence will still be weak against anyone good.

[Stranded]

In and of itself there is nothing wrong with relatively slow measured build up play (but christ it is boring) but when you do that, the point is to do so to try and create an opportunity to suddenly speed the play up and catch the opponent out but then involves some one making the move at the right time (at speed) and it being spotted - neither of those things are happening - so in the end a pass either goes astray or you are left with just slinging a ball in and hoping.

The couple of times England did speed up their play last night they created space for a shot or to get a pull back - the shots were then weak or no-one was moving in to the area where a cut back is always going to go - has been a couple of occassions where a ball has been cut back to the penalty spot and literally no player is making the obvious late run to meet it.

[Stranded]

Also interesting* to me at least to see the difference in atmosphere between England games and games involving literally every other nation there - I know these things are a 2 way straight but the atmosphere just feels so much more negative at England games than elsewhere to date.

[WestYorksRoyal]

Something stinks about England, seems a wealth of attacking players lose all sign of being that when they turn up to play. Southgate's "safeball" is possibly stifling all the good things of their games out of them thus the utterly **** performances so far. Would explain why newer squad members like Palmer showed something "entertaining" last night, but don't worry he'll quickly learn.

Or perhaps it's just that all English players are actually **** and only made to look half decent by having a load of proper players around them at club level together with management that have a bit of nous.

Perhaps there's a reason Southgate stuck with players like Maguire, Henderson, Rashford, Sterling etc for so long, and its because they gave a shit and bought into what he was doing.

Because the current lot sure don't look like they care or buy in.

The second England have a group of genuinely class players it becomes all about crowbarring the i dividuals in and team work dies.

They were all arguing and blaming each other last night. There no balance to the side and they've putin sod all effort.

They're playing badly and it doesn't matter whether it's job done so far. That sort of insipid play is self perpetuating.

This England side was all about great attacking talent and a weak defence. Well the attack is a shambles and the defence will still be weak against anyone good.

There could be something to be said on the personalities and cohesion point. We don't see the dressing room, but from visible snippets from the outside it looks like the squad is feeling the heat and nervous. Not bust ups and fallings out, but not a confident squad either.

It's well known that Henderson and Maguire were important dressing room figures, and perhaps we're missing that. Or theirs, Rashford and Sterling's exclusion has just upset the blend of experienced players. Nobody can say these players deserve to be in the squad on form, but squad turnover affects rhythm. You often see teams with high turnover start the domestic season slowly, and it feels like English are in a similar position with Southgate not knowing his best team.

Stylistically, you can definitely see what we're missing in Sterling and Rashford too. We have a load of talented technicians and not enough movement and running in behind.

It feeds into the feeling that it's time for a change, even if overall Southgate has done a good job. A lot of his stalwarts are reaching the end of their international careers; of those mentioned only Rashford could realistically return. Maybe building a new team should fall to someone else.

[Mr Angry]

At least the England team has developed the World's greatest insomnia treatment.......

Southgate missed a trick last night; he could have (should have?) rested some players (Kane, Bellingham, Saka and Rice) and thrown in players such as Bowen, Palmer, Mainoo and Gordon instead, to see what they could do - fresh legs, no baggage and a point to prove. He won't do that now in the knock out stages.

A big issue is we have zero attacking threat down the left, because Southgate only picked one left back who is injured, so needs to play Trippier who is so right footed he is incapable of even tapping the ball with his left foot, let alone crossing it. As a result he NEVER goes down the outside, and if he is there, he automatically cuts in thus taking up the space that Foden is in......the defender knows all he has to do is show Trippier the outside and he is out of the game.

Right now, the England starting 11 are so obvious and predictable, that anyone can prevent us from creating opportunities; unless Southgate makes significant changes (though he won't of course) when we come up against better teams not only will they prevent us from making chances, they will also hurt us when they go forward.

We have been fortunate to play 3 teams with limited attacking options so far (the Danes posed more than the single, aerial threat that Slovenia and Serbia posed, and we were lucky to get away with a draw), and so our defence hasn't been tested, but I can't be alone in thinking there have been signs that we are a disaster at the back waiting to happen - the cheap way we gave away possession in our own half last night being one, and the mis-communication between Stones and Guehi that let a Slovenian forward through on goal requiring Guehi to foul the guy and pick up a yellow being another.

Something has to change or we will only progress to the quarters at best, and for the team ranked 4th in the World, that is simply not acceptable.

[Winston Biscuit]

I have been quite a Southgate defender, but he is really testing my patience