England v Slovenia

[Royal Rother]

I think you’ll find Bellingham made Bellingham look poor

How can a positional change solve the problem of not being able to control a ball properly or not being able to make a 10 yard pass accurately ?

Southgate may set them up to be cautious, but the fact that they can’t pass and don’t seem to want to move is 100% down to the players

Can't agree with that.

It happens time and again with England under Southgate. It's not a coincidence.

If you send players out with a message that is contrary to their natural instincts and beliefs it will have a negative impact on mentality and confidence in-game. Palmer and (briefly) Gordon apart, no-one did what they do at club level, or even made much of an effort to do so.

A good manager / coach finds a system that brings out most of those natural instincts and beliefs in each individual and molds it together into an effective unit. Southgate can't do that - instead he inhibits everything they do and that, in time, (it doesn't take long) affects their ability to even do the basics well.

To be fair, Foden did try hard to break free of those shackles but he needs others to interact with, and most of the time those others were not on the same page. Why? See above.

[Stranded]

At least the England team has developed the World's greatest insomnia treatment.......

Southgate missed a trick last night; he could have (should have?) rested some players (Kane, Bellingham, Saka and Rice) and thrown in players such as Bowen, Palmer, Mainoo and Gordon instead, to see what they could do - fresh legs, no baggage and a point to prove. He won't do that now in the knock out stages.

A big issue is we have zero attacking threat down the left, because Southgate only picked one left back who is injured, so needs to play Trippier who is so right footed he is incapable of even tapping the ball with his left foot, let alone crossing it. As a result he NEVER goes down the outside, and if he is there, he automatically cuts in thus taking up the space that Foden is in......the defender knows all he has to do is show Trippier the outside and he is out of the game.

Right now, the England starting 11 are so obvious and predictable, that anyone can prevent us from creating opportunities; unless Southgate makes significant changes (though he won't of course) when we come up against better teams not only will they prevent us from making chances, they will also hurt us when they go forward.

We have been fortunate to play 3 teams with limited attacking options so far (the Danes posed more than the single, aerial threat that Slovenia and Serbia posed, and we were lucky to get away with a draw), and so our defence hasn't been tested, but I can't be alone in thinking there have been signs that we are a disaster at the back waiting to happen - the cheap way we gave away possession in our own half last night being one, and the mis-communication between Stones and Guehi that let a Slovenian forward through on goal requiring Guehi to foul the guy and pick up a yellow being another.

Something has to change or we will only progress to the quarters at best, and for the team ranked 4th in the World, that is simply not acceptable.

Ah the World Rankings a meaningless piece of info that people only like to use to make a negative point as per above.

Any system that can be "gamed" like the FIFA Rankings should never really be used to make a point of any sort and if you do feel that, then the performances of, now 5th placed, England are clearly superior to that of 2nd placed France and 3rd place Belgium. Fancy letting 25th placed Austria win that group - fire the coaches immediately!!

Plenty of sticks to beat this England side with so probably best staying clear of the World Rankings angle.

[Winston Biscuit]

Something has to change or we will only progress to the quarters at best, and for the team ranked 4th in the World, that is simply not acceptable.

don't agree with that. We all want England to do as well as possible, but a team that is ranked 4th (and I know the ranking are obv just a loose guide) is only 1 ranking place better than a team not 'good enough' to be in the semi finals.

I think unless you are clearly the best by some distance, anywhere from the last QF's onwards is fine for other nations

[Dave the rave]

I decided that I actually liked the tempo and the cut and thrust of yesterday's game. Some of the challenges and the lack of rolling about and the referee letting the fact that it's contact sport made it feel a bit like a 90s England game.

Yes, we need a way to deliver in the final third but I liked the game.

Foden, Saka and Palmer need to start. They are the ones that can unlock defences. They need to be given the ball in positions they can run at the opposition.

[Snowflake Royal]

Something stinks about England, seems a wealth of attacking players lose all sign of being that when they turn up to play. Southgate's "safeball" is possibly stifling all the good things of their games out of them thus the utterly **** performances so far. Would explain why newer squad members like Palmer showed something "entertaining" last night, but don't worry he'll quickly learn.

Or perhaps it's just that all English players are actually **** and only made to look half decent by having a load of proper players around them at club level together with management that have a bit of nous.

Perhaps there's a reason Southgate stuck with players like Maguire, Henderson, Rashford, Sterling etc for so long, and its because they gave a shit and bought into what he was doing.

Because the current lot sure don't look like they care or buy in.

The second England have a group of genuinely class players it becomes all about crowbarring the i dividuals in and team work dies.

They were all arguing and blaming each other last night. There no balance to the side and they've putin sod all effort.

They're playing badly and it doesn't matter whether it's job done so far. That sort of insipid play is self perpetuating.

This England side was all about great attacking talent and a weak defence. Well the attack is a shambles and the defence will still be weak against anyone good.

There could be something to be said on the personalities and cohesion point. We don't see the dressing room, but from visible snippets from the outside it looks like the squad is feeling the heat and nervous. Not bust ups and fallings out, but not a confident squad either.

It's well known that Henderson and Maguire were important dressing room figures, and perhaps we're missing that. Or theirs, Rashford and Sterling's exclusion has just upset the blend of experienced players. Nobody can say these players deserve to be in the squad on form, but squad turnover affects rhythm. You often see teams with high turnover start the domestic season slowly, and it feels like English are in a similar position with Southgate not knowing his best team.

Stylistically, you can definitely see what we're missing in Sterling and Rashford too. We have a load of talented technicians and not enough movement and running in behind.

It feeds into the feeling that it's time for a change, even if overall Southgate has done a good job. A lot of his stalwarts are reaching the end of their international careers; of those mentioned only Rashford could realistically return. Maybe building a new team should fall to someone else.

Good post

[Snowflake Royal]

I think you’ll find Bellingham made Bellingham look poor

How can a positional change solve the problem of not being able to control a ball properly or not being able to make a 10 yard pass accurately ?

Southgate may set them up to be cautious, but the fact that they can’t pass and don’t seem to want to move is 100% down to the players

Can't agree with that.

It happens time and again with England under Southgate. It's not a coincidence.

If you send players out with a message that is contrary to their natural instincts and beliefs it will have a negative impact on mentality and confidence in-game. Palmer and (briefly) Gordon apart, no-one did what they do at club level, or even made much of an effort to do so.

A good manager / coach finds a system that brings out most of those natural instincts and beliefs in each individual and molds it together into an effective unit. Southgate can't do that - instead he inhibits everything they do and that, in time, (it doesn't take long) affects their ability to even do the basics well.

To be fair, Foden did try hard to break free of those shackles but he needs others to interact with, and most of the time those others were not on the same page. Why? See above.

Nope, not buying it. There is no excuse for that lack of quality from a player that good. That's on him.

There may be a general Southgate malaise, but these players simply aren't playing within the levels they can even taking that into account.

[Royal Rother]

So what is your reasoning?

Nervous?
Tired?
Can't be arsed?
Something else?

[Franchise FC]

So what is your reasoning?

Nervous?
Tired?
Can't be arsed?
Something else?

Rather too many of them look completely shot (Bellingham, Kane, Saka, Foden in the first two)
If 3 or 4 of the best players in any team are not functioning it’s almost incredible to expect the rest to carry them
If another 2 or 3 are underperforming, even slightly, then the team are in massive trouble (Walker, Tripper, TAA)
That’s where we’ve been
Still doesn’t explain the inability to pass a ball 10 yards to a teammate

And if Southgate had left out ANY of the 4 he’d have been slaughtered

Does rather put to bed the issue being too many games in the PL given 2 of those aren’t in it

[Snowflake Royal]

So what is your reasoning?

Nervous?
Tired?
Can't be arsed?
Something else?

I can't see i side their heads, so I'm not going to try to explain it.

It's not like Southgate is asking them to play a complicated shape that is being exploited. We're not talking a Selles problem where the shape is all wrong and the team is instructed to play in two narrow tram lines, and we're losing the ball constantly, can't keep it and getting smashed on the break down the flanks or through the middle.

They had 70 odd % possession.

A manager can emphasise ball retention over gambling on low % high reward passes. But at the end of the day the players choose how to implement that.

Walker or Saka put a wicked ball across the box second half, Kane went mid to near 6 yard box. Bellingham was stood watching far corner of the 18 yard box. The ball went to far side of the pen spot, which Bellingham should have been running to and smashing it in. He hadn't moved.

That's not a management direction. That's not his natural game. That's passive laziness.

Multiple times he had opportunities to move into space. Or close someone down, and instead just walked around not involved. That is not a management instruction.

It simply isn't.

Now maybe the set up, coaching and approachis also wrong and contributing. But anyone who thinks Southgate is the only problem and replacing him solves it all isn't in touch with reality.

[Franchise FC]

So what is your reasoning?

Nervous?
Tired?
Can't be arsed?
Something else?

I can't see i side their heads, so I'm not going to try to explain it.

It's not like Southgate is asking them to play a complicated shape that is being exploited. We're not talking a Selles problem where the shape is all wrong and the team is instructed to play in two narrow tram lines, and we're losing the ball constantly, can't keep it and getting smashed on the break down the flanks or through the middle.

They had 70 odd % possession.

A manager can emphasise ball retention over gambling on low % high reward passes. But at the end of the day the players choose how to implement that.

Walker or Saka put a wicked ball across the box second half, Kane went mid to near 6 yard box. Bellingham was stood watching far corner of the 18 yard box. The ball went to far side of the pen spot, which Bellingham should have been running to and smashing it in. He hadn't moved.

That's not a management direction. That's not his natural game. That's passive laziness.

Multiple times he had opportunities to move into space. Or close someone down, and instead just walked around not involved. That is not a management instruction.

It simply isn't.

Now maybe the set up, coaching and approachis also wrong and contributing. But anyone who thinks Southgate is the only problem and replacing him solves it all isn't in touch with reality.

I’m living in an alternative reality … for 24 hours I’ve been agreeing with Ian


Nurse ….. my medication has worn off

[Snowflake Royal]

I think there's a Greenism for that.

[URZZZZ]

A lot of talk on the likes of Foden, Bellingham, Kane being poor etc etc but I think Rice has been miles off it two games in a row

He’s our best box to box player IMO, you’re really restricting him by making him play as a sitter

Said before when it comes to Reading that midfield balance is one of, if not the most important thing to get right in the team as it impacts both the attacking and defensive of things and ours hasn’t been right all tournament

There’s always an element of players being better when they’re not in the side but I’m surprised he hasn’t given Wharton a go. A Wharton - Rice - Foden/Bellingham trio seems most logical personally

[Snowflake Royal]

I think the Rodgers and Stam (s2) management of Reading are potentially interesting comparisons though.

Both emphasised ball retention as a primary aim to win games. Keep the ball, pass it, move the opposition until they tire or make a mistake, try to draw them out etc. Both failed and both saw the players not really understand how to implement that and create chances.

Some elements are similar to England. The slow walking pace football, refusal to take any risks. Initially some movement but it quickly expires as its rarely rewarded with an attempted pass.

But unlike both of those two, England have players with enough skill and experience to know when and how to find space, be aware of their team mates and try to play them in. And to move the ball at pace and with accuracy even if the players aren't moving quickly.

But England aren't piling pressure on themselves at the back with stupid short passes.

And Southgate is only building on the existing coaching of these players clubs. Not doing the whole job. And he has an undeniably successful track record with England at tournaments. Yes he falls at the final stages, but his group stage track record is excellent. Even now, with dire performances he's still won the group.

[Snowflake Royal]

A lot of talk on the likes of Foden, Bellingham, Kane being poor etc etc but I think Rice has been miles off it two games in a row

He’s our best box to box player IMO, you’re really restricting him by making him play as a sitter

Said before when it comes to Reading that midfield balance is one of, if not the most important thing to get right in the team as it impacts both the attacking and defensive of things and ours hasn’t been right all tournament

There’s always an element of players being better when they’re not in the side but I’m surprised he hasn’t given Wharton a go. A Wharton - Rice - Foden/Bellingham trio seems most logical personally

Yes, I think there's genuine criticism of the midfield and left side balance.

I wonder what pelters Southgate would have got for not starting one of Bellingham or Foden, though. First game out anyway. Afterall, they're part of the best front 6 in the world, right?

[WestYorksRoyal]

I'm not sure I buy the tiredness point. These players have played a lot of matches, but the same is true for all the best teams who have players going deep into continental competitions. A confirmed, happy team generate their own energy, we're not doing that.

[Royal Rother]

So what is your reasoning?

Nervous?
Tired?
Can't be arsed?
Something else?

I can't see i side their heads, so I'm not going to try to explain it.

It's not like Southgate is asking them to play a complicated shape that is being exploited. We're not talking a Selles problem where the shape is all wrong and the team is instructed to play in two narrow tram lines, and we're losing the ball constantly, can't keep it and getting smashed on the break down the flanks or through the middle.

They had 70 odd % possession.

A manager can emphasise ball retention over gambling on low % high reward passes. But at the end of the day the players choose how to implement that.

Walker or Saka put a wicked ball across the box second half, Kane went mid to near 6 yard box. Bellingham was stood watching far corner of the 18 yard box. The ball went to far side of the pen spot, which Bellingham should have been running to and smashing it in. He hadn't moved.

That's not a management direction. That's not his natural game. That's passive laziness.

Multiple times he had opportunities to move into space. Or close someone down, and instead just walked around not involved. That is not a management instruction.

It simply isn't.

Now maybe the set up, coaching and approachis also wrong and contributing. But anyone who thinks Southgate is the only problem and replacing him solves it all isn't in touch with reality.

I think everyone agrees Southgate is a cautious manager and sends his players out with a cautious game plan, yes?

We all know that everyone in that squad is a dedicated hard working player with a quick and instinctive footballing brain.

We all know that everyone in the squad is capable of seeing potential space and running into it to create a potential threatening situation.

We all know that everyone in the squad is capable of making a quick and accurate pass.

Those are all perfectly logical and accurate statements.

All of those attributes are absolutely essential to create a slick attacking move. And yet none of those attributes are on display. Except in the ones who have just come into the squad. Why is that?

To me the most logical reason is because they haven’t been subjected over and over to the cautious message from the manager and coaching staff.

Get that cautious message into a player’s brain enough times and it blunts them. It puts cotton wool in their otherwise sharp footballing brains and rips away the very essence of what makes them the well-trained, highly skilled players that they are for their clubs.

And yes, I’m sure there are other factors in there somewhere, but the biggest factor by far is Southgate. To me there just is no logical alternative explanation.

I may very well be different to your average football fan but what makes it so bloody annoying is that he has made us into a team that it is very hard to support with any enthusiasm or optimism. All I really want from a football team I support is to be entertained and excited. When that isn’t there game after game after game, for me it becomes hard to give much of a toss about the outcome.

[LUX]

So, as it stands we’ll be playing Slovakia next, not NL.

Sounds like another nil nil, then penalties affair

I get far too involved in England games. Albeit slightly less than RFC

Both have been a tough ask to support for 50 years.

[Ascotexgunner]

So, as it stands we’ll be playing Slovakia next, not NL.

Sounds like another nil nil, then penalties affair

I get far too involved in England games. Albeit slightly less than RFC

Both have been a tough ask to support for 50 years.

Southgate has to be theeee luckiest manager on the planet. How do England keep dodging the big guns at major tournaments. Yes they had a France in the World Cup, but they were beatable and didn't impress, even though they made the final.

[Snowflake Royal]

So what is your reasoning?

Nervous?
Tired?
Can't be arsed?
Something else?

I can't see i side their heads, so I'm not going to try to explain it.

It's not like Southgate is asking them to play a complicated shape that is being exploited. We're not talking a Selles problem where the shape is all wrong and the team is instructed to play in two narrow tram lines, and we're losing the ball constantly, can't keep it and getting smashed on the break down the flanks or through the middle.

They had 70 odd % possession.

A manager can emphasise ball retention over gambling on low % high reward passes. But at the end of the day the players choose how to implement that.

Walker or Saka put a wicked ball across the box second half, Kane went mid to near 6 yard box. Bellingham was stood watching far corner of the 18 yard box. The ball went to far side of the pen spot, which Bellingham should have been running to and smashing it in. He hadn't moved.

That's not a management direction. That's not his natural game. That's passive laziness.

Multiple times he had opportunities to move into space. Or close someone down, and instead just walked around not involved. That is not a management instruction.

It simply isn't.

Now maybe the set up, coaching and approachis also wrong and contributing. But anyone who thinks Southgate is the only problem and replacing him solves it all isn't in touch with reality.

I think everyone agrees Southgate is a cautious manager and sends his players out with a cautious game plan, yes?

We all know that everyone in that squad is a dedicated hard working player with a quick and instinctive footballing brain.

We all know that everyone in the squad is capable of seeing potential space and running into it to create a potential threatening situation.

We all know that everyone in the squad is capable of making a quick and accurate pass.

Those are all perfectly logical and accurate statements.

All of those attributes are absolutely essential to create a slick attacking move. And yet none of those attributes are on display. Except in the ones who have just come into the squad. Why is that?

To me the most logical reason is because they haven’t been subjected over and over to the cautious message from the manager and coaching staff.

Get that cautious message into a player’s brain enough times and it blunts them. It puts cotton wool in their otherwise sharp footballing brains and rips away the very essence of what makes them the well-trained, highly skilled players that they are for their clubs.

And yes, I’m sure there are other factors in there somewhere, but the biggest factor by far is Southgate. To me there just is no logical alternative explanation.

I may very well be different to your average football fan but what makes it so bloody annoying is that he has made us into a team that it is very hard to support with any enthusiasm or optimism. All I really want from a football team I support is to be entertained and excited. When that isn’t there game after game after game, for me it becomes hard to give much of a toss about the outcome.

This doesn't work. They've all been party of the same squad with the same build up.

Foden is pretty established with the squad and he's one of the few players actualy moving and taking people on and shooting. Walker has been around for ages, he did it a bit too.

[URZZZZ]

A lot of talk on the likes of Foden, Bellingham, Kane being poor etc etc but I think Rice has been miles off it two games in a row

He’s our best box to box player IMO, you’re really restricting him by making him play as a sitter

Said before when it comes to Reading that midfield balance is one of, if not the most important thing to get right in the team as it impacts both the attacking and defensive of things and ours hasn’t been right all tournament

There’s always an element of players being better when they’re not in the side but I’m surprised he hasn’t given Wharton a go. A Wharton - Rice - Foden/Bellingham trio seems most logical personally

Yes, I think there's genuine criticism of the midfield and left side balance.

I wonder what pelters Southgate would have got for not starting one of Bellingham or Foden, though. First game out anyway. Afterall, they're part of the best front 6 in the world, right?

Too many “stat based” expert nowadays that base their ideas off what they read rather than what they actually see on the pitch. Seen a fair few calls to push both Bellingham and Foden central but that midfield would get walked over IMO