England Vs. Spain

[SouthDownsRoyal]

I don’t know if Kane was nursing an injury or was just knackered but he was anonymous for most of the tournament dropping far too deep.

Southgate has done a good job in my eyes with the squad, how the players are managed and their relationship with fans and media.

But ultimately the game is about winning it’s about entertainment and it’s about trophy’s he shows too much faith in sone and an unwillingness to drop people, he was never dropping Kane for fear of losing and being castigated for dropping him.

Thank you to GS but time fir both parties to part ways, this appointment is absolutely massive because we have a core of talent, as said above fir another four or so major tournaments, please don’t let us get to 2032/34 and have us looking back like we did on the “golden generation” having won nothing again with the wrong manager

Some of the criticisms of GS from some has been OTT but he has one of best squads in the world available to him, we had relatively kind draws in the last two euros and we played poorly in almost the whole tournament so when he says he doesn’t understand much of the criticisms of him, I think he’s being a bit silly.

[6ft Kerplunk]

One last thing. Kane was clearly well below par all tournament, and yet was its joint top scorer. Not bad.

Two penalties and a header. I love him, but very suddenly, and notwithstanding his excellent season for Bayern, he looks a little like one of those strikers who gets to 31/32 and disappears, at international level at least. Time will tell. But if he can't run in behind, or make space by coming for the ball, then he's next to useless.

I think its more that the team's kind of moving on from him. Before he would have had Sterling up with him to make the runs behind defenders. Now the likes of Saka, Foden, Palmer, Bellingham etc aren't going to be doing that. I said it before the tournament that we really need a quick striker to come through, or Watkins to keep improving, that fits with getting the best out of the other attacking players.

[South Coast Royal]

trying to defend a 1-0 lead for 85 minutes instead of trying to kill off Italy in the final.

And in another scenario, we kept attacking Italy and lost the final 3-1. Football isn't binary.

Re the above, I forgot Palmer too. We really do have an incredible core of young players - I think Trent is the oldest of the seven or eight, and is only 25.

This is what Wright said last night but we always seem to have a set of good young players who will go on and win things-what gets forgotten is that other countries have good young players.
Spain for example have Lamal, Williams, Pedri ,Gabi,Baldre, the very young centre-back at Barcelona and with the midfield axis of Rodri and Ruiz both 28 and Olmo 26 their prospects look even better than ours.

For once I am in agreement with you on something-Southgate has done a good job and I have always felt that his players are really not as good as our hype makes them and with their limitations he has probably got the best out of them, many of whom are made to look better than they really are because of playing alongside outstanding club players like Rodri, Ostegaard, De Bruyne etc.
The two exceptions are Kane and Bellingham who, despite the goals against lesser teams, underperformed.

Incidentally, one interesting point made last night was that only two players came from Spain's biggest of Barcelona and Real Madrid.

Thank goodness club football is back soon before we then start to hear talk of 60 years of hurt.

[WestYorksRoyal]

One last thing. Kane was clearly well below par all tournament, and yet was its joint top scorer. Not bad.

Two penalties and a header. I love him, but very suddenly, and notwithstanding his excellent season for Bayern, he looks a little like one of those strikers who gets to 31/32 and disappears, at international level at least. Time will tell. But if he can't run in behind, or make space by coming for the ball, then he's next to useless.

He wasn’t fully fit, but the bigger issue was system. If you get runners like Son/Sterling/Gnabry/Coman, Kane is the best in the world at what he does. Who had that profile in this England team? Saka is the closest, but even he primarily operates by picking up the ball deeper and running at the full back. There was simply no space for Kane to drop into and be effective. Add in that he wasn't fully fit, and I agree it was a poor tournaments for him, even with 3 goals.

But talk of him being past his best when he has only just turned 31 is absurd, especially for a player who has never based his game around pace. He has 5 years at the top left in him and will probably be a part of out squad in 2026 and 2028.

I do think he could lose his status as the main man though. We are loaded with talent in attacking midfield positions; Saka, Bellingham, Foden, Palmer, Eze. Maddison and Grealish didn't even make the squad. If you want to pick a striker who can stretch the defence and make space for them, it's not Kane.

[Sutekh]

One last thing. Kane was clearly well below par all tournament, and yet was its joint top scorer. Not bad.

Two penalties and a header. I love him, but very suddenly, and notwithstanding his excellent season for Bayern, he looks a little like one of those strikers who gets to 31/32 and disappears, at international level at least. Time will tell. But if he can't run in behind, or make space by coming for the ball, then he's next to useless.

He wasn’t fully fit, but the bigger issue was system. If you get runners like Son/Sterling/Gnabry/Coman, Kane is the best in the world at what he does. Who had that profile in this England team? Saka is the closest, but even he primarily operates by picking up the ball deeper and running at the full back. There was simply no space for Kane to drop into and be effective. Add in that he wasn't fully fit, and I agree it was a poor tournaments for him, even with 3 goals.

But talk of him being past his best when he has only just turned 31 is absurd, especially for a player who has never based his game around pace. He has 5 years at the top left in him and will probably be a part of out squad in 2026 and 2028.

I do think he could lose his status as the main man though. We are loaded with talent in attacking midfield positions; Saka, Bellingham, Foden, Palmer, Eze. Maddison and Grealish didn't even make the squad. If you want to pick a striker who can stretch the defence and make space for them, it's not Kane.

This is back to Southgate, he needs to be selecting a team not just picking the best of what there is. Find a way to play that best suits the strengths of the majority of players available and work with that. It might mean you pick lesser players in some instances but overall it's what makes the team function at it's best that's important not the individual parts.

[WestYorksRoyal]

An interesting point made elsewhere, teams like Portugal and France have recently had success by being defensive and relying on moments, but none came across a team as good as Spain. They were excellent and you need more against a side of that quality.

Worryingly, their squad has a similar age profile to ours. They could dominate like they did from '08 - '12.

[WestYorksRoyal]

Two penalties and a header. I love him, but very suddenly, and notwithstanding his excellent season for Bayern, he looks a little like one of those strikers who gets to 31/32 and disappears, at international level at least. Time will tell. But if he can't run in behind, or make space by coming for the ball, then he's next to useless.

He wasn’t fully fit, but the bigger issue was system. If you get runners like Son/Sterling/Gnabry/Coman, Kane is the best in the world at what he does. Who had that profile in this England team? Saka is the closest, but even he primarily operates by picking up the ball deeper and running at the full back. There was simply no space for Kane to drop into and be effective. Add in that he wasn't fully fit, and I agree it was a poor tournaments for him, even with 3 goals.

But talk of him being past his best when he has only just turned 31 is absurd, especially for a player who has never based his game around pace. He has 5 years at the top left in him and will probably be a part of out squad in 2026 and 2028.

I do think he could lose his status as the main man though. We are loaded with talent in attacking midfield positions; Saka, Bellingham, Foden, Palmer, Eze. Maddison and Grealish didn't even make the squad. If you want to pick a striker who can stretch the defence and make space for them, it's not Kane.

This is back to Southgate, he needs to be selecting a team not just picking the best of what there is. Find a way to play that best suits the strengths of the majority of players available and work with that. It might mean you pick lesser players in some instances but overall it's what makes the team function at it's best that's important not the individual parts.

It's not an easy puzzle to fix though. I personally would build for 2026 with Wharton in as a 6, let Rice be more of a box to box like he is at Arsenal and also give us better control of possession, which ultimately is always where we fail. But that means 1 or 2 out of Bellingham, Kane and Foden miss out. A realistic line up for 2026 could be:

Pickford
TAA Stones Guehi Shaw
Wharton Rice
Saka Bellingham/Foden Foden/Gordon
Kane/Watkins

That has Palmer on the bench too. Our problem now is almost having too much talent to choose between. An incoming manager needs the tactical side, but also the man management so these players react well to not being picked and contribute from the bench. Imagine how Bellingham would react if Foden started ahead of him.

[South Coast Royal]

Two penalties and a header. I love him, but very suddenly, and notwithstanding his excellent season for Bayern, he looks a little like one of those strikers who gets to 31/32 and disappears, at international level at least. Time will tell. But if he can't run in behind, or make space by coming for the ball, then he's next to useless.

He wasn’t fully fit, but the bigger issue was system. If you get runners like Son/Sterling/Gnabry/Coman, Kane is the best in the world at what he does. Who had that profile in this England team? Saka is the closest, but even he primarily operates by picking up the ball deeper and running at the full back. There was simply no space for Kane to drop into and be effective. Add in that he wasn't fully fit, and I agree it was a poor tournaments for him, even with 3 goals.

But talk of him being past his best when he has only just turned 31 is absurd, especially for a player who has never based his game around pace. He has 5 years at the top left in him and will probably be a part of out squad in 2026 and 2028.

I do think he could lose his status as the main man though. We are loaded with talent in attacking midfield positions; Saka, Bellingham, Foden, Palmer, Eze. Maddison and Grealish didn't even make the squad. If you want to pick a striker who can stretch the defence and make space for them, it's not Kane.

This is back to Southgate, he needs to be selecting a team not just picking the best of what there is. Find a way to play that best suits the strengths of the majority of players available and work with that. It might mean you pick lesser players in some instances but overall it's what makes the team function at it's best that's important not the individual parts.

Spot on.
Learn from the only time that we won anything, 1966 when Ramsey picked Ball Hurst, Stiles and Hunt ahead of supposedly better players in their positions.

[Mid Sussex Royal]

Really can`t agree with the above, Southgate has fallen well short at many levels for me, we had a free ride to the WCF in 2018 and fell short in the semi final.
Germany, Ukraine and Denmark to reach euro 2020 before trying to defend a 1-0 lead for 85 minutes instead of trying to kill off Italy in the final.
WC 22 easy group before beating Senegal and losing to France.
The history books will say we were the 2nd best team in this tournament when clearly we weren`t because group results gave us another free ride to the final.
Southgate was too loyal to his regulars, it was painful to watch Kane struggle, with Saka and Foden offering very little service when there were options on the bench that were rarely used.

If you break it down against average FIFA world rankings, we had a harder route than Spain to the final in the knockout stage.

[Snowflake Royal]

Despite Kane and Bellingham being very talented, and our top scorers, they were net negatives to our game play by some way.

They can't play together based on this tournament, and to be honest I'd experiment with neither starting a bit.

Foden, for me, is the key player in attack. Every game he wanted the ball, found space, ran at people and looked to run in behind. Too often to no final product, but he was always on it. Him and Watkins could really press effectively from the front, and even with a deep and packed defence Foden is the sort who can wriggle through or slip a pass in.

Then you have the embarrassment of riches with Saka/Palmer on the right. So whoever starts you know you can get them to go hard for 60 minutes then get a break. Left is harder because we saw nothing of Gordon. I guess you could keep trying Foden out there and Bellingham at 10 because at least he won't be playing in Watkins' pocket, although still Foden's. There's always Sterling/Rashford who would still be better fits imo.

Rice and Mainoo/another is good in midfield. Not really sure where TAA fits, apparently not a good enough defender to play RB Internationally, and doesn't really fit in midfield.

[Orion1871]

I'm not sure if 0 goals or assists in seven starts at this tournament prove Foden is the best option to be the key player in attack.

Perhaps experiment with having Bellingham play in his actual position in central midfield.

[BRO_BOT]

Really can`t agree with the above, Southgate has fallen well short at many levels for me, we had a free ride to the WCF in 2018 and fell short in the semi final.
Germany, Ukraine and Denmark to reach euro 2020 before trying to defend a 1-0 lead for 85 minutes instead of trying to kill off Italy in the final.
WC 22 easy group before beating Senegal and losing to France.
The history books will say we were the 2nd best team in this tournament when clearly we weren`t because group results gave us another free ride to the final.
Southgate was too loyal to his regulars, it was painful to watch Kane struggle, with Saka and Foden offering very little service when there were options on the bench that were rarely used.

If you break it down against average FIFA world rankings, we had a harder route than Spain to the final in the knockout stage.

Not really, unless you're just adding up placement. Georgia being significantly lower ranked than Slovakia making the difference there.

Our cumulative win expectation (We) of the games is a lot higher

Spain (8), 1729.92
Georgia (74), 1338.91, 0.81
Germany (16), 1646.78, 0.38
France (2), 1837.47, 0.39

Cum_We = 1.59849771300546


England (5), 1787.88
Slovakia (45), 1467.77, 0.77
Switzerland (19),1617.24, 0.65
Netherlands (7), 1746.66, 0.53

Cum_We = 1.971118616528087

[Sanguine]

So having bleated on about rankings for weeks, now we're using cumulative win expectation?

[Sanguine]

But in time the noise will fade and the numbers will tell the story: two finals and a semi-final for a nation that previously had one final and two semis in its entire history.

Well said, Barney Ronay.

Ronay has another pretty forthright view too. That the only man who should succeed Southgate is Jurgen Klopp. I think one of the best things about such an appointment would be Southgate being followed by a man Brobers can stomach even less.

[Franchise FC]

But in time the noise will fade and the numbers will tell the story: two finals and a semi-final for a nation that previously had one final and two semis in its entire history.

Well said, Barney Ronay.

Ronay has another pretty forthright view too. That the only man who should succeed Southgate is Jurgen Klopp. I think one of the best things about such an appointment would be Southgate being followed by a man Brobers can stomach even less.

That would be priceless
Particularly if Klopp didn’t pick TAA

[Royal Rother]

Some interesting analysis here:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... euro-2024/

Including this gem....

England scored five goals in the 105 minutes Palmer was on the pitch and just three in the 525 he was not.

[windermereROYAL]

The Scots and Welsh are having a field day at our expense, but I guess we`d do the same in the incredibly unlikely event that they reached the final.

[WestYorksRoyal]

trying to defend a 1-0 lead for 85 minutes instead of trying to kill off Italy in the final.

And in another scenario, we kept attacking Italy and lost the final 3-1. Football isn't binary.

Re the above, I forgot Palmer too. We really do have an incredible core of young players - I think Trent is the oldest of the seven or eight, and is only 25.

For once I am in agreement with you on something-Southgate has done a good job and I have always felt that his players are really not as good as our hype makes them and with their limitations he has probably got the best out of them, many of whom are made to look better than they really are because of playing alongside outstanding club players like Rodri, Ostegaard, De Bruyne etc.

The hill I will die on is that our players are as good as they say and should be capable of competing with the best in the world. They're much more technical than they were a decade ago, for sure. Kane, Saka, Bellingham, Foden, Rice, Palmer and Stones would get into most teams, and the likes of Walker and Guehi are hardly liabilities.

What we sometimes forget is that other nations produce world class players too. When you look at the roster that the likes of France, Spain, Portugal and Brazil have, there is a lot to fear about those teams. But England are in the mix, and the fact that there was such a gulf in class with Spain comes down to coaching and playing identity.

What we miss is a Rodri / Kroos to control the game, but you can adapt to this. More pace to run in behind and directness to create space. Sometimes reading English post mortems, you start thinking no team has ever won anything without a Pirlo/Modric/Rodri/Kroos and it is impossible without one. Which is simply not true.

[6ft Kerplunk]

and the likes of Walker and Guehi are hardly liabilities.

I'd argue that Walker has been a bit of one in this tournament, his positional sense has always been a bit suspect and most the time in club football his pace is enough to get him out of trouble. At international level it isn't. Both goals on Sunday were a result of being out of position when his experience should have kicked in. Some of this may be how Southgate wanted the fullbacks to play and Saka not tracking back enought but coming out after halftime surely you think to yourself as a defensive unit that you switch on and keep things tight. He went walkabout leaving Spain's most dangerous player on the night free. Then after we get the equaliser again you'd think the experience would be key to thinking lets not give anything stupid away and yet off he went leaving the right hand side exposed again.

[tulip]

And in another scenario, we kept attacking Italy and lost the final 3-1. Football isn't binary.

Re the above, I forgot Palmer too. We really do have an incredible core of young players - I think Trent is the oldest of the seven or eight, and is only 25.

For once I am in agreement with you on something-Southgate has done a good job and I have always felt that his players are really not as good as our hype makes them and with their limitations he has probably got the best out of them, many of whom are made to look better than they really are because of playing alongside outstanding club players like Rodri, Ostegaard, De Bruyne etc.

The hill I will die on is that our players are as good as they say and should be capable of competing with the best in the world. They're much more technical than they were a decade ago, for sure. Kane, Saka, Bellingham, Foden, Rice, Palmer and Stones would get into most teams, and the likes of Walker and Guehi are hardly liabilities.

What we sometimes forget is that other nations produce world class players too. When you look at the roster that the likes of France, Spain, Portugal and Brazil have, there is a lot to fear about those teams. But England are in the mix, and the fact that there was such a gulf in class with Spain comes down to coaching and playing identity.

What we miss is a Rodri / Kroos to control the game, but you can adapt to this. More pace to run in behind and directness to create space. Sometimes reading English post mortems, you start thinking no team has ever won anything without a Pirlo/Modric/Rodri/Kroos and it is impossible without one. Which is simply not true.

I think this is exactly what England get wrong. Concentrating on superstars and not on players who are less well known, but work in the system. I get heartily sick of hearing the pundits raving about player this and player that, as if that is all it takes to win a game.
I believe Spain had very few players from the Big clubs (Real and Barca) and more from the lower levels.