Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

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Re: Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by From Despair To Where? » 27 Aug 2024 11:59

The club knew it was going to happen but realistically there was absolutely oxf*rd all could do to stop it so the best course of action was to let it happen and manage the situation as it evolved. I doubt the ball being kicked at the Port Vale assistant manager was intentional or targeted.

The charge is fair enough but everyone knows that the issue goes away when Dia finally fcuks off. The FA have to be seen to be sanctioning the club and I think they've made a sensible and pragmatic decision.

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Re: Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by WestYorksRoyal » 27 Aug 2024 12:19

From Despair To Where? The club knew it was going to happen but realistically there was absolutely oxf*rd all could do to stop it so the best course of action was to let it happen and manage the situation as it evolved. I doubt the ball being kicked at the Port Vale assistant manager was intentional or targeted.

The charge is fair enough but everyone knows that the issue goes away when Dia finally fcuks off. The FA have to be seen to be sanctioning the club and I think they've made a sensible and pragmatic decision.

What can a club reasonably do to stop an invasion? If just 10% of fans run on, stewards and police have no chance.

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Re: Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by Forbury Lion » 27 Aug 2024 13:05

WestYorksRoyal
From Despair To Where? The club knew it was going to happen but realistically there was absolutely oxf*rd all could do to stop it so the best course of action was to let it happen and manage the situation as it evolved. I doubt the ball being kicked at the Port Vale assistant manager was intentional or targeted.

The charge is fair enough but everyone knows that the issue goes away when Dia finally fcuks off. The FA have to be seen to be sanctioning the club and I think they've made a sensible and pragmatic decision.

What can a club reasonably do to stop an invasion? If just 10% of fans run on, stewards and police have no chance.
How about ask the FA to issue clear instructions detailing everything they should do/ what measures should be in place to avoid it, then stick 100% to that and then if it still happens, the FA can't accuse you of not doing enough.

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Re: Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by Snowflake Royal » 27 Aug 2024 15:02

Forbury Lion
WestYorksRoyal
From Despair To Where? The club knew it was going to happen but realistically there was absolutely oxf*rd all could do to stop it so the best course of action was to let it happen and manage the situation as it evolved. I doubt the ball being kicked at the Port Vale assistant manager was intentional or targeted.

The charge is fair enough but everyone knows that the issue goes away when Dia finally fcuks off. The FA have to be seen to be sanctioning the club and I think they've made a sensible and pragmatic decision.

What can a club reasonably do to stop an invasion? If just 10% of fans run on, stewards and police have no chance.
How about ask the FA to issue clear instructions detailing everything they should do/ what measures should be in place to avoid it, then stick 100% to that and then if it still happens, the FA can't accuse you of not doing enough.

You've not dealt with a regulator have you.

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Re: Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by Armadillo Roadkill » 27 Aug 2024 15:56

Snowflake Royal
Forbury Lion
WestYorksRoyal What can a club reasonably do to stop an invasion? If just 10% of fans run on, stewards and police have no chance.
How about ask the FA to issue clear instructions detailing everything they should do/ what measures should be in place to avoid it, then stick 100% to that and then if it still happens, the FA can't accuse you of not doing enough.

You've not dealt with a regulator have you.


I have. Ofcom. Quite a few times.

They provide high level guidelines for some things that aren't too critical to customer rights or safety. They then tend to be pretty reasonable in negotiating outcomes when there is a problem. An example might be allocation of geographic dialling codes to land lines.

Other things have very detailed regulations and rules. Like, for example, billing accuracy. Get that wrong and there's no ambiguity - you're in BIG trouble.

So Forbs's suggestion is not at all ridiculous, although I would say that enforcing ground regulations is pretty firmly the responsibility of the club, not the EFL / FA.


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Re: Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by The Royal Forester » 27 Aug 2024 16:05

Will Dai pay the fine before, or if, he goes? But he will pocket any incoming transfer fees this week though. Leaving Couhig to pay the fine, IIF or when the deal is done.

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Re: Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by Linden Jones' Tash » 27 Aug 2024 16:31

The Royal Forester Will Dai pay the fine before, or if, he goes? But he will pocket any incoming transfer fees this week though. Leaving Couhig to pay the fine, IIF or when the deal is done.


I'd assume the SPA ( Sale & Purchase Agreement) would include a whole bunch of contingencies based on liabilities, etc - so the end sale price & payment schedule would be based on agreed criteria being met.

Otherwise things can get very legal very quickly...

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Re: Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by Snowflake Royal » 27 Aug 2024 17:28

Armadillo Roadkill
Snowflake Royal
Forbury Lion How about ask the FA to issue clear instructions detailing everything they should do/ what measures should be in place to avoid it, then stick 100% to that and then if it still happens, the FA can't accuse you of not doing enough.

You've not dealt with a regulator have you.


I have. Ofcom. Quite a few times.

They provide high level guidelines for some things that aren't too critical to customer rights or safety. They then tend to be pretty reasonable in negotiating outcomes when there is a problem. An example might be allocation of geographic dialling codes to land lines.

Other things have very detailed regulations and rules. Like, for example, billing accuracy. Get that wrong and there's no ambiguity - you're in BIG trouble.

So Forbs's suggestion is not at all ridiculous, although I would say that enforcing ground regulations is pretty firmly the responsibility of the club, not the EFL / FA.

Ours basically says, these are your conditions of existing, make sure you meet them. Not our job to tell you how.

That way, when someone complains, even though they've known for a decade we do things that way, they can still tell us we should have done something different.

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Re: Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by Clyde1998 » 28 Aug 2024 02:48

WestYorksRoyal
From Despair To Where? The club knew it was going to happen but realistically there was absolutely oxf*rd all could do to stop it so the best course of action was to let it happen and manage the situation as it evolved. I doubt the ball being kicked at the Port Vale assistant manager was intentional or targeted.

The charge is fair enough but everyone knows that the issue goes away when Dia finally fcuks off. The FA have to be seen to be sanctioning the club and I think they've made a sensible and pragmatic decision.

What can a club reasonably do to stop an invasion? If just 10% of fans run on, stewards and police have no chance.

Exactly what I was thinking reading the report.

The personal who complied the initial report basically asks 'why didn't the club have more stewards and utilise the police on site?' It's a case of if someone is determined to break into your house, you can't reasonably stop it. If 1,000 people are determined to get onto the pitch, you can't stop it - at least not without creating a much more volatile situation and without causing serious injuries.

Additionally, and IIRC, the pitch invasion plan was only publicly 'approved' about three days before the game. I can't imagine the club could find and train an additional 100 stewards (or whatever it would've taken) in that time and I'd imagine the police would need more time to provide resources.

That's without considering deploying more stewards would've cost the club financially. The club wasn't paying HMRC; I don't see how it was going to pay for additional stewarding or policing for a one-off game without additional revenue from that fixture.

I think the most important quotes from the report are (in regards to policing), both being arguments made by the club:
26.
vi. At no point during the incident when RFC’s supporters entered the pitch did TVP consider intervening as the Incident was a peaceful protest without any violence or disorder;
viii. RFC has no control over what actions or decisions are taken by TVP officers when they are on duty at any match. Therefore any criticism which Mr. Conniford has regarding TVP should not be attributed to RFC which is in no position to give orders to experienced police officers;

Essentially the Commission has agreed the culpability of the club was low, with the fine basically due to the seriousness and harm of the incident (basically the mass invasion, the game being abandoned and the risk of the situation suddenly getting worse). The fine was lowered from the starting point of £15k due to the club accepting misconduct and the club's financial situation. Half being suspended was due to the EFL's sanctions as a result of the match. I think the final outcome reached by the Commission is reasonable.


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Re: Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by PieEater » 28 Aug 2024 12:42

I thought I heard that the club hadn't paid the bill for TVP so they only sent the legal minimum cover. So no chance of them stopping anything,

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Re: Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by Crusader Royal » 28 Aug 2024 14:44

PieEater I thought I heard that the club hadn't paid the bill for TVP so they only sent the legal minimum cover. So no chance of them stopping anything,


You think there is some ‘legal’ cover level set somewhere ?
Well most games have no police in attendance so that makes that an interesting theory !
Levels of cover would be discussed by the Safety Officer and the police, they might disagree on what is needed but it seems unlikely the police would not turn up because of an outstanding invoice. Even if the police are there then managing a peaceful pitch invasion would be a club issue rather than a police one.

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Re: Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by Forbury Lion » 02 Sep 2024 13:12

From Despair To Where? The personal who complied the initial report basically asks 'why didn't the club have more stewards and utilise the police on site?' It's a case of if someone is determined to break into your house, you can't reasonably stop it. If 1,000 people are determined to get onto the pitch, you can't stop it - at least not without creating a much more volatile situation and without causing serious injuries.
The police are not there to stop trespassing, especially a peaceful protest. That's a civil matter, so completely different to breaking into a house.
If they thought there would be violence of a thread to property then maybe they would have taken action. People just standing together in the middle of a football pitch isn't a criminal matter.

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Re: Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by From Despair To Where? » 02 Sep 2024 13:18

Forbury Lion
From Despair To Where? The personal who complied the initial report basically asks 'why didn't the club have more stewards and utilise the police on site?' It's a case of if someone is determined to break into your house, you can't reasonably stop it. If 1,000 people are determined to get onto the pitch, you can't stop it - at least not without creating a much more volatile situation and without causing serious injuries.
The police are not there to stop trespassing, especially a peaceful protest. That's a civil matter, so completely different to breaking into a house.
If they thought there would be violence of a thread to property then maybe they would have taken action. People just standing together in the middle of a football pitch isn't a criminal matter.


I didn't say that!!!!


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Re: Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by rabidbee » 02 Sep 2024 13:23

Forbury Lion
From Despair To Where? The personal who complied the initial report basically asks 'why didn't the club have more stewards and utilise the police on site?' It's a case of if someone is determined to break into your house, you can't reasonably stop it. If 1,000 people are determined to get onto the pitch, you can't stop it - at least not without creating a much more volatile situation and without causing serious injuries.
The police are not there to stop trespassing, especially a peaceful protest. That's a civil matter, so completely different to breaking into a house.


The Football (Offences) Act 1991, section 4 It is an offence for a person at a designated football match to go onto the playing area, or any area adjacent to the playing area to which spectators are not generally admitted, without lawful authority or lawful excuse (which shall be for him to prove).

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Re: Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by Brogue » 16 Sep 2024 14:09

feck knows where to put this but nigel howe has had his suspension reduced by 3 months on appeal

https://www.thefa.com/news/2024/sep/16/ ... ate-160924

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Re: Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by Snowflake Royal » 16 Sep 2024 18:02

It did seem a bit harsh given the clause never made it past the authorities and we knew it wouldn’t

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Re: Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by WestYorksRoyal » 19 Sep 2024 19:01

I wonder what the situation with the financial statements are. If you take too long, you get a letter from the government threatening legal action against the directors.

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Re: Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by Mid Sussex Royal » 19 Sep 2024 19:10

WestYorksRoyal I wonder what the situation with the financial statements are. If you take too long, you get a letter from the government threatening legal action against the directors.


Doesn't seem to have been asked by anyone at the press conf.

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Re: Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by Forbury Lion » 20 Sep 2024 10:45

Mid Sussex Royal
WestYorksRoyal I wonder what the situation with the financial statements are. If you take too long, you get a letter from the government threatening legal action against the directors.


Doesn't seem to have been asked by anyone at the press conf.

You have 9 months to file your accounts from the date of your financial year end, For most football clubs that's end of June.
Most clubs take as long as possible.

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Re: Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

by Mid Sussex Royal » 20 Sep 2024 11:41

Forbury Lion
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WestYorksRoyal I wonder what the situation with the financial statements are. If you take too long, you get a letter from the government threatening legal action against the directors.


Doesn't seem to have been asked by anyone at the press conf.

You have 9 months to file your accounts from the date of your financial year end, For most football clubs that's end of June.
Most clubs take as long as possible.


In terms of EFL regs I've just checked and there's no additional action, other than player registration embargo, they can take regardless of how long it takes for the accounts to be submitted.

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