England - the future....

[LUX]

Ahhhh, you’d probably know him in real life. Well, from around 45 years ago.

[Royal Rother]

Ahhhh, you’d probably know him in real life. Well, from around 45 years ago.

Oooo. '71 recruit?

[LUX]

72 like me.

[Sutekh]

Will Ben White come back into England’s plans under Tuchel or is/should he be binned off after his “not wanting to be involved”?

[South Coast Royal]

Will Ben White come back into England’s plans under Tuchel or is/should he be binned off after his “not wanting to be involved”?

No,no,no. at least thrice no.

"I don't want to have to sit around in a foreign country just hoping to get a game, I'm going home" doesn't go down too well and doesn't make him much of a team player.

Curtis Jones was told that he wasn't wanted for the Euros but knuckled down back at his club and both he and England got their reward last night.
It's not as if Ben White is that good anyway.

[Royal Rother]

I didn't see the 2nd half as decided to go for the cricket.

We looked pretty good from what I saw and generally more mobile everywhere.

Was there any discussion about Kane's absence allowing a more dynamic flow as there wasn't the need to wait for the striker to catch up from a deep lying position?

[South Coast Royal]

I didn't see the 2nd half as decided to go for the cricket.

We looked pretty good from what I saw and generally more mobile everywhere.

Was there any discussion about Kane's absence allowing a more dynamic flow as there wasn't the need to wait for the striker to catch up from a deep lying position?

Didn't see any of the discussions from the "experts" as the darts and cricket were surely more interesting.

Watkins did well but, as you suggested might happen, Kane dropped deep far too often and rather got in the way.
Some good approach play but defensively we always look vulnerable.

I don't like him as a person(not because of being Everton but for the unpunished attack on Van Dijk which buggered up his season) but Pickford was in top form and needed to be.

Good to see the ref booking players for disputing decisions and for Pickford for just doing his normal pissing around stuff.

[Royal Rother]

Thanks.

Although he is of course still a fantastic finisher (clearly better than Watkins), if he can't just play as a striker and instead keeps coming deep (as you say, getting in the way), I suspect we will be a better team without him in it.

[BRO_BOT]

I didn't see the 2nd half as decided to go for the cricket.

We looked pretty good from what I saw and generally more mobile everywhere.

Was there any discussion about Kane's absence allowing a more dynamic flow as there wasn't the need to wait for the striker to catch up from a deep lying position?

Luckily the TV production wasn't done by an English company or there would have been constant cutaways to Kane, especially after Watkins' early goal. He'd have to give it the full 'old Ramsdale cheer'

[South Coast Royal]

I didn't see the 2nd half as decided to go for the cricket.

We looked pretty good from what I saw and generally more mobile everywhere.

Was there any discussion about Kane's absence allowing a more dynamic flow as there wasn't the need to wait for the striker to catch up from a deep lying position?

Luckily the TV production wasn't done by an English company or there would have been constant cutaways to Kane, especially after Watkins' early goal. He'd have to give it the full 'old Ramsdale cheer'

[WestYorksRoyal]

Thanks.

Although he is of course still a fantastic finisher (clearly better than Watkins), if he can't just play as a striker and instead keeps coming deep (as you say, getting in the way), I suspect we will be a better team without him in it.

If you look at Spurs and Bayern, he has always been surrounded by runners who create space in the middle so he can get involved and make things happen. His best England form was with Sterling and Rashford.

I could see it work for England with players like Gordon, Saka and Madueke, and Bellingham is probably the one out of all the no. 10s who will run beyond the backline too. But you can forget it with Foden, Palmer and Grealish. So if we want more players like that, it has to be Watkins.

Let's hope Tuchel is brave enough to make the call. I would personally pick Watkins to make space for Palmer who is an absolute baller.

[Sanguine]

It would be a brave one. Broadly speaking, Kane scores a goal a game. So if you're dropping him, you need a goal a game from somewhere else.

Can't understand any desire to see Kane cast aside, tbh. He's just scored a brilliant hat-trick for Bayern where he didn't look slow, at all. And one of the goals (for Bayern) directly resulted from him coming deep for the ball, as did the penalty he assisted last night.

Not sure why the demand can't be for the likes of Palmer and Grealish to make more of the runs Kane needs.

[Royal Rother]

Says it all for me.

Kane has been the defining player of an era, but this thing has run its course
Barney Ronay at Wembley (The Guardian)

England want to win the World Cup in two years’ time. They will not with a centre-forward who can no longer move

There was an oddly heartbreaking moment with 87 minutes gone at Wembley, as Harry Kane was put through on goal with a chance to score his second of the night, made all the more tender by the fact he seemed so desperately keen to do exactly that with England already 5-0 up.

Mainly it was heartbreaking because of the way Kane reached down to pump the accelerator, and just found nothing, a man suddenly running backwards through time, wind chimes tinkling. The finish was rushed and too close to the goalkeeper. Kane ended up flat on his face. He didn’t stop, passing and pointing and leading this team of tyros to the final whistle. Maybe he can wear his Bobby Charlton top next time and still take all the penalties.

Or perhaps not. Time calls for everyone in the end, and here there was something present below the hum of the crowd every time Kane took the ball and seemed to be visibly rearranging his legs, like a pantomime horse setting off on a trot, the creak of the clapper, the clanging of that distant bell.

On this evidence, plus the painful spectacle of the summer, it is time for a refresh. England have set themselves the goal of winning a World Cup in two years’ time. They aren’t going to do this with a centre-forward who basically can’t move any more. This thing has surely run its course.

How is it going to play out? The past week has brought a feistier Kane, out there dropping truth bombs in front of the radio mics. Although interestingly before this game there were different takes on what happens next. Kane made it clear he’s very good pals with the new manager who is, in case there were any doubt, a close personal friend, conjuring a vague yeah-she’s-from-a-different-school-you-wouldn’t-know-her vibe.

Carsley, by contrast, talked phlegmatically about “giving Thomas options”, with an element of cold war messaging. Kane being dropped against Greece is a clear gift to his successor.

He had the chance to make his case here from the start, which made tactical sense against opponents England were expected to dominate territorially. It was, though, a really terrible opening. Wembley had been chilly and still at kick-off. The first notes of the pre-match God Save the King drew a huge droning noise from the Irish end, met by an even larger droning noise from all three England sides, which may, on reflection, have just been more God Save the King.

Kane did nothing for 15 minutes. Then he did nothing for a bit more. Unless specifically stated otherwise, it is safe to assume Kane was doing nothing for the entire half. Instead he chugged sedately, carrying with him that air of stately authority, like a ceremonial city mayor with a gold chain round his neck, off to stand near the winning courgette display for the local newspaper. For a while England noodled about playing the ball carefully between their interlocking segments. It would be tempting to call this classic gentle Sunday night entertainment, Heartbeat with a ball. Except, stuff did actually happen in Heartbeat. Conor Gallagher at least ran with a doomed prison-yard exercise hour sense of purpose.

The score was still 0-0 at the break, at which point Kane’s breakdown read: 11 touches, zero shots, dribbles, crosses, tackles or headers won. He was definitely out there. Like the moon landings, we have footage. But this was Kane as an absence, a ghost in the machine, falling between the numbers.

This game will be remembered as the Carsley farewell. The interim manager is clearly a good thing, a company man but also bold in his choices and encouragingly ruthless. England have gained some sparky young players. Most significantly they have also shed the idea of themselves as doomed to carry Kane as an immovable weight, ever-present from game to game like a decaying battle standard.

Kane did help to break the game open 10 minutes into the second half, dropping deep and producing a fine pass for Jude Bellingham, who made a lovely diagonal run behind the Irish cover, then found himself upended as Liam Scales hung out a leg. A second booking brought a heartbreaking trudge off. Kane took the penalty. It was 2-0 three minutes later thanks to Anthony Gordon’s volley. Three minutes later it was 3-0, a tap-in from Gallagher. And by now the evening had descended into a parlour-game exercise in guessing who could score the next goal (answers: Jarrod Bowen and Taylor Harwood-Bellis).
And so England are guaranteed promotion from Nations League Group B, which is a thing. Two questions present themselves. Why was Thomas Tuchel not here? What could he possibly be doing that took precedence? All-day bottomless brunch? Hair transplant recovery period? Day of the Jackal marathon?
Plus of course there is now the Kane conundrum, which really shouldn’t be a conundrum for anyone with a set of eyes. This game is cruel. It will take its bite in the end.

Kane has been the defining player of this successful era. But this team needs new energy, and Tuchel has a very clear opportunity now to make that change. Time, please, time.

[LUX]

Reluctant agreed.

BTW @ Sanguine, I like watching Grealish play, of course he is a talent, but I’d say he is quite far down the England pecking order now. We have some very exciting young players at the moment.

[South Coast Royal]

Reluctant agreed.

BTW @ Sanguine, I like watching Grealish play, of course he is a talent, but I’d say he is quite far down the England pecking order now. We have some very exciting young players at the moment.

Another agreed.
2 years in football is quite a long time and Kane might still be able to do what he does then, just as Lewandowski his fore-runner and ace goalscorer at Munich continues to do at 35(?) with good players around him at Barcelona.

On the other hand Kane has got slower over these past 2 years so maybe come the next World Cup he could be even slower which is no good thing when it looks as though the evolving England will be a side that plays best at pace .

Over to you Tuchel and we will see.

[Snowflake Royal]

Kane strikes me as a fantastic player to have on the bench, but having watched England in the summer, something needs to give, and it makes more sense for it to be the aging, slowing striker than any of the exciting young talent.

In the summer England were crying out for someone like Watkins would could threaten in behind or burst onto a ball.

Kane, Bellingham and Foden just got in each other's way.

[Royal Rother]

Interesting to see where / how / whether Foden fits into TT’s plans.

I think he may need to reinvent himself if he’s going to have a major role for England in the future.

Whilst at City that may be tough to do.

[Carnabyswhiskers]

This might be controversial but I don't see our striker choice as an either / or, Kane or Watkins. Given the mobility we have available, especially but not exclusively in wide areas, a more mobile version of Kane at his peak would fit the bill - able to bring the other forward players into play, but rapid enough also to get into the box to convert chances. Two possibilities (no, not Percy Freeman): Solanke or, long-shot, Liam Delap. It will be interesting to see how both develop over the next year.

[South Coast Royal]

This might be controversial but I don't see our striker choice as an either / or, Kane or Watkins. Given the mobility we have available, especially but not exclusively in wide areas, a more mobile version of Kane at his peak would fit the bill - able to bring the other forward players into play, but rapid enough also to get into the box to convert chances. Two possibilities (no, not Percy Freeman): Solanke or, long-shot, Liam Delap. It will be interesting to see how both develop over the next year.

What I find odd is the dearth of English strikers around.
Every kid wants to be a striker but we seem to be producing more and more midfielders than anything else.

At Reading's lowly level when did we produce a striker of our own and looking at the top clubs in the Premier League very few have English strikers so we then come to Solanke.
No good at Chelsea or Liverpool and Bournemouth fans think that the £65 million or so paid by Spurs was more than double his real worth.

Your choice of Delap might turn out to be the one and we will see how he progresses this season in a team that are contenders for relegation.

[Royal Rother]

Unbelievable piece of skill and goal for Kane last night. Messi would have been proud of that.

And another hat trick.