Long - Time to go.

[Harpers So Solid Crew]

Agree that even Doyle was not a 20 a season striker. TBH I was not that excited watching him, but you could see he was a good player who could score. And no you are not playing with ten men, you are a team, a team that knows that if they can keep going for 90 mins then they have someone on the pitch that can score, and take off that little bit of pressure that goals bring to a team.

With Doyle at Reading he opened up play for others to score, we took the title with 99 goals, yet we did not have a 20 goal striker, why, well I would seriously have expected Doyle to have managed it, but our strikers managed 49 goals between the 3 of them, playing approx 4-4-2, and with 49 starts between them, and you come along and show that at the current rate our 3 main strikers, Long, Hunt and Church will manage about 30.

It is not really good enough.

[Ian Royal]

Did anyone know that Shane Long has scored 1200% more goals than Jacob Walcott in his last 40 appearances?

HSSC: 20 goal a season strikers are extremely rare and having been around as long as you have, you should know that. And I think you'll find Kitson got 22 goals the season we went up.

What teams need is at least one striker who will regularly get around the 18 mark, say 16+, 20 a season is being unrealistic and is not that necessary to do well.

[Harpers So Solid Crew]

So just 50 goals from the top 5 scorers, and as I said I want a 20 goal striker, the kind that does feck all all game then slips one in from nothing, AKA Curo, Chappell, Friday, Senior, Dixon, Quinn, even Morley. You know someone that excites the supporters.

But the problem then is we are playing with ten men. We don't have the sheer quality of some other seasons so we have pace, strength. athleticism of someone like Long. Of course you could replace him with (as one example, Rasiak) and if Rasiak played as he did, he'd get 2 goals every 5 games (maybe) but we'd struggle elsewhere. Did Rasiak tackle back? Did he clear corners? Did he get assists?

As long as we can't/won't invest in real class then we have to do it down-and-dirty.

I hear the cry for the 20+ striker, but the man we sold for 6.5 MILLION couldn't do it!

Senior and Quinn often went back to defend corners, as did Butler, tho he could hardly jump afterthe injury.

[Wycombe Royal]

Shane Long is not as good as Berbatov

Why do you do this? Two strikers - Long and Holt. It really isn't hard to follow, but as you know you can't defend Longs scoring record against Holt's this season you just try to avoid it........

A better option would be to say nothing at all.

I am totally not interested in discussing Holt, who gets a hat-trick in one game so all of a sudden is the topic of discussion.

Prior to today's game he had FOUR league goals. The same as Long


Knees + Jerks

If you aren't interested in discussing Holt then don't respond to anyone who is. It really is as easy as that. You don't HAVE to respond.

[Snowball]

Oh I see, you used a massively selective sample in which the other two players hadn't got as much pitch time or even as many appearances. Of course, how did I not guess you were making a completely useless and biased comparison to make your favourite player look artificially better.

:

Not even SLIGHTLY. This thread is ABOUT Shane Long. He barely played 400 minutes under Todger, and it was when McDermott came in that he started to get time on the pitch.

26 Forest
00 Burton
90 Newcastle
00 Swansea
90 Sheff U
00 Barnsley
06 Barnsley
00 Doncaster
00 Cardiff
00 Peterboro
00 Watford
00 Preston
00 Boro
37 WBA
90 QPR
25 Leicester
34 Coventry
29 Ipswich
00 Blackpool
45 Derby
00 Sheff W
00 Palace
00 Scunny

472 minutes out of a possible 2070 minutes

73 Bristol <<<<<<<<<<<< McDermott takes over
55 Swansea
60 Plymouth
13 Liverpool
39 Liverpool
12 Nott F
26 Burnley
90 Sheff U
90 Barnsley
90 Doncaster
90 Plymouth
48 WBA
00 Palace
00 Blackpool
65 WBA
00 Sheff W
90 Villa
90 Derby
88 Bristol
68 QPR
90 Boro
75 Leicester
65 WBA
73 Ipswich
00 Coventry
64 Cardiff
79 Newcastle
90 Peterboro
29 Scunny
61 Watford
84 Preston

[Wycombe Royal]

Holt's League One Record last season was impressive. Yet Matty Fryatt's record is poo-pooed because it's not "in the Championship."

I didn't see anyone mention Holt's record in League One, although I haven't read all the comments on here so I may have missed it. I know I haven't.

[Victor Meldrew]

Holt's League One Record last season was impressive. Yet Matty Fryatt's record is poo-pooed because it's not "in the Championship."

I didn't see anyone mention Holt's record in League One, although I haven't read all the comments on here so I may have missed it. I know I haven't.

24 league goals last season.
7 already this season having started 18 games and finished 17 (wrongly sent off against us).
I raised the question of Holt as an example of a different kind of striker compared with ours.
Not only is he strong,he holds up play and brings others into action and very importantly he scores goals,7 in the league and 2 in cup games this season.
Rather than what we have,3 little blokes who run around a lot but don't score many,I would prefer us to have this kind of player instead of Long or indeed any of the others.

[Snowball]

Holt's League One Record last season was impressive. Yet Matty Fryatt's record is poo-pooed because it's not "in the Championship."

I didn't see anyone mention Holt's record in League One, although I haven't read all the comments on here so I may have missed it. I know I haven't.

Well, OK, what's his Championship record?

Prior to yesterday he'd scored less championship goals than Long had in the Premiership

[Snowball]

24 league ONE goals last season.
7 already this season having started 18 games and finished 17 (wrongly sent off against us).

And at 12 o'clock today that was 4 in 17. Him getting sent off is at least partly his fault, BTW

I raised the question of Holt as an example of a different kind of striker compared with ours. Not only is he strong,he holds up play and brings others into action and very importantly he scores goals,7 in the league and 2 in cup games this season. Rather than what we have,3 little blokes who run around a lot but don't score many,I would prefer us to have this kind of player instead of Long or indeed any of the others.

I don';t think it's the players, really.

Hunt got 13 goals a couple of seasons ago even though he was carrying
an injury and played about half the total minutes Doyle played.

He played 29 (10) but the 29 games, he came off on 60-65 every time, so effectively he got his 13 goals in 22 games

Long has had 9 goals in the last two seasons but only playing half the minutes both seasons

Both should go close to 20 goals if they played 46 * 90 minutes, and if the partnership[ was more regular goals would come easier

[Victor Meldrew]

Holt's League One Record last season was impressive. Yet Matty Fryatt's record is poo-pooed because it's not "in the Championship."

I didn't see anyone mention Holt's record in League One, although I haven't read all the comments on here so I may have missed it. I know I haven't.

Well, OK, what's his Championship record?

Prior to yesterday he'd scored less championship goals than Long had in the Premiership

That's because he hasn't played in The Premiership derbrain.
No wonder you p*** so many people off because you try to relate facts where no correlation exists.
If you were presenting a case in a court of law you would be ejected for wasting the court's time and probably charged with being a public nuisance especially if you spoke in the same denegrating and course way that you do on here to some of the posters.

[Snowball]

That's because he hasn't played in The Premiership derbrain.
No wonder you p*** so many people off because you try to relate facts where no correlation exists.
If you were presenting a case in a court of law you would be ejected for wasting the court's time and probably charged with being a public nuisance especially if you spoke in the same denegrating and course way that you do on here to some of the posters.

Holt MIGHT make a CCC striker (ie 20 goals)



Right now he has 4 goals in 17 games and 3 goals in 1 game, a trick he might never repeat. 7 in 18.


SOME League 1 hot-shots take a step up and do well at CCC level. Some fail. At the moment it's hard to tell how well Holt will do. But Long has 33 goals, 20+ against CCC opposition and 10 against Premiership opposition. He has proved he can score goals against the best. Sure he's having a relatively dry patch, but then every season he's been way more prolific in the second half of the season (but he's also played almost always 442)

If after 36 games Holt is on 14 and Shane Long is on 8 (6 penalties, I don't care) THEN we can say Holt is doing better. But it's farcical to say he clearly is a better player. 24 Hours ago their goals-record for this season was identical.

[Victor Meldrew]

Snowball,
From what I can glean you have only been watching Reading for a few years based on the fact that you knew nothing of Forster other than some facts that you dug up.
Many of us on here have been watching Reading for a very long time and in all the divisions so we have seen many really bad players for our club as well as a few good 'uns.
What we have often had is good strikers and for most seasons we were let down by our defence.
We have had Robin Friday,Kerry Dixon,Trevor Senior,Martin Butler,Jamie Cureton,Nicky Forster,Kevin Doyle,Dave Kitson et al.
We now have Shane Long.
He is a non-striking striker and we know that to do any better as a club we need somebody who does score goals.
Meanwhile we draw games that we might have won and are miles away from where we were just 3 years ago.

It is not all Shane's fault but having brought in Griff and Kish to bolster the defence we need Brian to bring in a striker to bolster the attack and who knows he might even keep Shane as a back-up or as an impact sub which he was before.
The sooner Brian addresses the problem the better.

[Victor Meldrew]

That's because he hasn't played in The Premiership derbrain.
No wonder you p*** so many people off because you try to relate facts where no correlation exists.
If you were presenting a case in a court of law you would be ejected for wasting the court's time and probably charged with being a public nuisance especially if you spoke in the same denegrating and course way that you do on here to some of the posters.

Holt MIGHT make a CCC striker (ie 20 goals)



Right now he has 4 goals in 17 games and 3 goals in 1 game, a trick he might never repeat. 7 in 18.


SOME League 1 hot-shots take a step up and do well at CCC level. Some fail. At the moment it's hard to tell how well Holt will do. But Long has 33 goals, 20+ against CCC opposition and 10 against Premiership opposition. He has proved he can score goals against the best. Sure he's having a relatively dry patch, but then every season he's been way more prolific in the second half of the season (but he's also played almost always 442)

If after 36 games Holt is on 14 and Shane Long is on 8 (6 penalties, I don't care) THEN we can say Holt is doing better. But it's farcical to say he clearly is a better player. 24 Hours ago their goals-record for this season was identical.

Selectivity again Snowball-3 in one game shows that he can score goals,we weren't discussing how,when or how important each game and goal is-merely we are looking at records for the current season.
Holt may not make the step-up beyond these early games but he has made a pretty good start.
I know which one I would sooner have.

[cmonurz]

Back in page god-knows-what Snowball was complaining when I highlighted that a lot of Long's goals had come in a purple patch last Xmas. Now he wants to highlight that many of Holt's goals came in one game.

Transparent hypocrisy.

[Platypuss]

[Snowball]

Back in page god-knows-what Snowball was complaining when I highlighted that a lot of Long's goals had come in a purple patch last Xmas. Now he wants to highlight that many of Holt's goals came in one game.

Transparent hypocrisy.

Jesus, how pathetic are you?

In Long's case we are talking about six seasons of steady and clear improvement. You engineered 20x games to exclude a purple patch and exclude two cup games against Premiership clubs.

In the case of Holt, he had only ever played 18 CCC games and scored 4 goals.

Then in a SINGLE, ONE-OFF game he gets three goals and suddenly he's the bees-knees. I've said HE MAY WELL BE GOOD. I've said HE MAY WELL REPEAT his seven goals in 18/19.

IF he does he may get to 14 goals in 36 and 18 in 46.

OTOH he might repeat his 4 in 17, in which case he should finish the same or thereabouts as Long.

Only one person (to his credit) had suggested Holt as a possible before yesterday. Now of course the children clamour, because in ONE GAME the player did something a bit special. IF he repeats his tally for these 18 games in the next 18 games, then Holt will have proven himself.

[Wycombe Royal]

When was Shane's last hattrick for us? Has he scored one (genuine question as I don't recall one).

THe simple fact is that at the moment Holt is in better goalscoring form than Long. He has shown that over the course of this season. And he doesn't need to take penalties to bump up his goal tally. If had taken them for Norwich he could have had another two goals this season.

Noone is saying he is the BETTER player but even you can't deny that he is in better goalscoring form than Long? One more goal for Holt this season and he will have achieved what Shane Long never has - 10 goals in a Championship season. Has he played in the Championship before?

[Snowball]

[

That's because he hasn't played in The Premiership derbrain.

But Long has...

No wonder you p*** so many people off because you try to relate facts where no correlation exists.

Nobody is talking about "correlation". I make the simple point that Holt is a solid, workmanlike striker from the lower leagues who is finally getting A FEW goals in the CCC. Prior to yesterday's game he was on the same number of goals/games in the league as Long who is being slated for not scoring.

YES he has had a hat-trick, and YES he scored a very good goal against us, almost had another very decent goal against us, and if he was on our books, yes he'd probably be the lead-striker. But lots of strikers step up a league and fail, and if I was looking to spend a bit of money on transfers and probably good wages I'd be a TEENSY bit wary about a guy who is 29 Years 7 and a half months old with a less than 5 months experience in the CCC.

If someone like that became available on loan, then the punt is worth it, but the guy is not really proven at this level. The guy is probably a very decent CCC forward and in another 20-30 games we'll KNOW he is, but ask why he's not been picked up by a CCC club (never mind a Premiership club)

As for 7 goals in 19 games. Wowser.

36 H 90 Minutes 1-0 (LONG) Barnsley <<<<<<<<<<
35 A 90 Minutes 2-1 (LONG, Howard) Doncaster <<<<<<<<<<<
34 H 90 Minutes 2-1 (LONG, LONG [Pen]) Plymouth <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
33 H 48 Minutes 2-2 WBA
32 H 90 Minutes 2-4 (LONG, LONG) Aston Villa <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
31 H 90 Minutes 4-1 (LONG, Kebe, Church, Bertrand) Derby County

Long had seven goals in SIX games including two against Aston Villa. But cmonurz thinks that's "not representative".

The point is we judge players on extended runs of games. Not 5 or ten but seasons. Church this season is a good example. 3 goals as a sub in how many minutes on the pitch? 56 minutes, a goal every 18-19 minutes... therefore he'll score 4 a game... yet he has now started 9 games and is 9 (10) for those 3 goals, zero goals in 9 starts compared to 4 goals in 18 starts for Long... or to put it another way 9 (7) for zero goals.

That is NOT to knock Church. I think he has the attributes to be very good indeed. I merely make the point that knees+jerks keep over-reacting to short-term form runs (either good or bad)... Noel Hunt MIGHT get 1-2-3 goals at Sheffield and then he'll be raved about. He might miss out either from bad luck or bad play and maybe Long will get lucky, or Church will come on for 25 minutes and get a hat-trick.

Judge players on a reasonable number of games. If Shane gets to 30 league games and only 5 goals, I'll start to worry. OTOH, Sunday we...

[brendywendy]

bunch of oxf*rd gaybos


SSSSHHHHHHHHHHH

[Snowball]

When was Shane's last hattrick for us? Has he scored one (genuine question as I don't recall one).

He hasn't had one.

He's scored two five times.

v Derby (both open play) Aged 19 Years and 3 Months
v Charlton (one open play, one pen)
v Plymouth (one open play, one pen)
v Norwich (both open play headers)
v ASTON VILLA (both open play)

The simple fact is that at the moment Holt is in better goalscoring form than Long. He has shown that over the course of this season.

Simplistic fact, more like. Noon Sunday he was no better. ONE Game and now he is, perhaps temporarily.

And he doesn't need to take penalties to bump up his goal tally. If had taken them for Norwich he could have had another two goals this season.

Maybe he's crap at penalties.

Not everyone is good at them, including Tottenham and England's Defoe. Spurs have missed 4 of their last 9
=

Noone is saying he is the BETTER player but even you can't deny that he is in better goalscoring form than Long? One more goal for Holt this season and he will have achieved what Shane Long never has - 10 goals in a Championship season. Has he played in the Championship before?

The most games Long has PLAYED in a season is

24 (12) = 26.00 NINE GOALS
15 (26) = 19.17 NINE GOALS
18 (01) = 18.17

Holt is ALREADY on 20 (1) = 20.17

So if (IF) Holt scores in his very next game he will be 21.17 for 10 goals compared to 22 year old Shane Long's 26 for 9 goals.
Clearly better if you exclude the fact that Long scored 3 of his goals versus LIVERPOOL and ASTON VILLA versus those two goals against Gillingham FC, 16th in League 2

People keep talking about Long as if he's played full seasons. He has not yet played ONE full season. 2010-11 looks like being his first what I'd call "senior" season where he more or less expects to play... and he is slipping odd the pace goals-wise VERY slightly. Six goals gets you into the top-ten strikers

13 Bothroyd Cardiff
10 Commons Derby
09 Iwelumo Burnley
08 Becchio Leeds United
08 Mackie QPR
07 Graham Watford
07 Holt Norwich
07 King Leicester
07 Parkin Preston
06 Coppinger Doncaster
06 Hayter Doncaster

09 McGugan Nott'm Forest MF
09 Taarabt QPR MF
08 Sinclair Swansea MF
07 Hammill Barnsley MF