Simon Church

[West Stand Man]

and the goals to games and mins ratio is?

sorry simon but you're a bit not good.

My recollection is that, on another thread, Snowball has answered your question. Church is still better based on the stats you seek to use.

[royalsroyalsroyals92]

Nothing about a scapegoat at all. Its more a case off our manager constantly playing or putting on a player who seems to offer nothing, and misses decent opportunities.
Oh wait, sorry... he runs around a lot and tires the defenders out... cause that makes him a brilliant striker

Village.
Missing idiot.
Return immediately.

Sorry, maybe I've been watching different games then.,
Please tell me, why should we still keep playing him?

[Ian Royal]

For crying out loud get a sense of perspective. Church is not shit. He's average. He's not got a good scoring record from his loans, but then he's also not the player he was back then either.

He doesn't score enough at this level so far, and he doesn't add as much as other strikers in creativity or effective work rate. But he does show flashes of quality, if anything I think his problem is mental rather than ability or physical. He's also the only striker we have other than Roberts who's shown any real goalscoring form recently, not that it was a great deal.

I agree he should be 4th, maybe even 5th choice and he's probably not going to make it here. But when none of our strikers are exactly smashing in the goals (Roberts excluded) then it really isn't that hard to see why McDermott is making the picks he is, even if you don't agree with them.

[Snowball]

simon church is a disaster at this level. his previous loans in L1 & L2 where he really should have scored a few, were also unsuccessful.

Two seasons ago, age 20-21 he played for a team called Reading in the Championship

1,856 Minutes in the league for 10 goals and 3 assists

186 Minutes per goal, a goal every 2 full games.

143 Minutes per Major Contribution

Shane Long's RFC Career averaged 193 Minutes per Goal
and obviously a lot of that was his final year

[West Stand Man]

Sorry, maybe I've been watching different games then.,
Please tell me, why should we still keep playing him?

You clearly have been watching different games. I have been watching the ones where Simon Church has played. You have been watching a fictional character who can't play football. In the ones I have seen, Simon Church has been at least average and sometimes better. How your fictional character has been performing is something I can't comment on.

Rather than, childishly, falling into the groupthink about a player why not check out the facts first. You may find that the player that you are criticising is actually doing ok (maybe not a Messi - but then we didn't really expect that did we?)

[winchester_royal]

simon church is a disaster at this level. his previous loans in L1 & L2 where he really should have scored a few, were also unsuccessful.

Two seasons ago, age 20-21 he played for a team called Reading in the Championship

1,856 Minutes in the league for 10 goals and 3 assists

186 Minutes per goal, a goal every 2 full games.

143 Minutes per Major Contribution

Shane Long's RFC Career averaged 193 Minutes per Goal
and obviously a lot of that was his final year

So because he scored 10 goals in a season 2 years ago he is good enough for this level?

Two words: Michael Ricketts.

[Snowball]

Winchester, do you think Brian McDermott knows more about football than you?

[royalsroyalsroyals92]

Sorry, maybe I've been watching different games then.,
Please tell me, why should we still keep playing him?

You clearly have been watching different games. I have been watching the ones where Simon Church has played. You have been watching a fictional character who can't play football. In the ones I have seen, Simon Church has been at least average and sometimes better. How your fictional character has been performing is something I can't comment on.

Rather than, childishly, falling into the groupthink about a player why not check out the facts first. You may find that the player that you are criticising is actually doing ok (maybe not a Messi - but then we didn't really expect that did we?)

His performance yesterday (yes i know only one) was well below average. When he had an opportunity to impact not he game, he did so in a negative manor.
I literally hardly see him ever touch the ball and make something good of it when he plays.
He may be a footballer, but he is certainly not cut out at this level yet. Id love to be proved wrong, but even after we've persisted with him, he hasn't shown many signs of improvement

[andrew1957]

For crying out loud get a sense of perspective. Church is not shit. He's average. He's not got a good scoring record from his loans, but then he's also not the player he was back then either.

He doesn't score enough at this level so far, and he doesn't add as much as other strikers in creativity or effective work rate. But he does show flashes of quality, if anything I think his problem is mental rather than ability or physical. He's also the only striker we have other than Roberts who's shown any real goalscoring form recently, not that it was a great deal.

I agree he should be 4th, maybe even 5th choice and he's probably not going to make it here. But when none of our strikers are exactly smashing in the goals (Roberts excluded) then it really isn't that hard to see why McDermott is making the picks he is, even if you don't agree with them.

Pretty much agree Ian. Having watched the Swindon Barnet match the other evening Izale McLeod was absolutely atrocious and is not even worth consideration to the likes of Church and yet is a top striker at that level. Church is too good a player for League 1 or 2 but the problem does appear to be in his head. The constant barracking from the home fans cannot be helping and it is no coincidence that his better performances seem to have been away from home.

I have to say that I tend to agree with McD that Roberts and Hunt are our stand out first choice pair and that Church offers a lot of running around when we are protecting a lead - as we have been in the last two home games. If we had been chasing the games I have little doubt that ALF would have been brought on as he was at Watford. It is a question of the style of player that you need to finish off a game and get the win. Church does a job for McD whether hobnobbers like it or not.

[Basingstoke Royal]

I don't know how anyone can say he is not good at this level. He has never been any good at any level.

The club have stayed loyal and he has had more than enough game time this season to prove himself and he hasnt. He isnt any better now than when he made his debut years ago.

Would love him to come good but can't see it ever happening

[winchester_royal]

Winchester, do you think Brian McDermott knows more about football than you?

We've had this argument before Snowball.

I'm not going to accept every single decision than Brian makes out of blind faith merely because he knows more about football than I do. All managers have blind spots and weaknesses, and they aren't always correct.

Otherwise there would be very little point in internet discussion forums.

I also think that Sir Alex Ferguson knows more about football than me, but he spent £10m on Eric Djemba-Djemba....

[Platypuss]

Winchester, do you think Brian McDermott knows more about football than you?

Do you think McD never makes mistakes?

[Snowball]

Winchester, do you think Brian McDermott knows more about football than you?

Do you think McD never makes mistakes?

In a single game, sure, but not over 28 games.

[winchester_royal]

Winchester, do you think Brian McDermott knows more about football than you?

Do you think McD never makes mistakes?

In a single game, sure, but not over 28 games.

You are Craig Mortimer AICMFP

[Snowball]

Winchester, do you think Brian McDermott knows more about football than you?

We've had this argument before Snowball.

I'm not going to accept every single decision than Brian makes out of blind faith merely because he knows more about football than I do. All managers have blind spots and weaknesses, and they aren't always correct.
Otherwise there would be very little point in internet discussion forums.
I also think that Sir Alex Ferguson knows more about football than me, but he spent £10m on Eric Djemba-Djemba....

But McDermott has PROVED he is right, game after game after game.

We have absolutely no right to be the best form-side over the last 23 games
Not when you think West Ham and Birmingham have virtually got a Premiership
squad and many sides have spent a lot of money.

Church has started in 10 of our 14 games and been sub in 2 more


I think what happens with fans is they fixate their ideas. Look how hard it was to change the prejudice against Shane Long

We have threads saying

Cummings is a joke.
Pearce is not good enough
Federici should be dropped
Harte is a joke
Church (obviously)
Another saying Hunt & Church are simply not good enough
Another saying McAnuff is simply not good enough
Not this season but a couple of seasons ago Kebe was ridiculed

Of the current squad (pre-Roberts)

Federici
Cummings
Griffin
Harte
Mills
Pearce
Karacan
McAnuff
HRK
Kebe
Church
Hunt

AT LEAST have all been panned on these boards


I sort of have the feeling HobNobbers haven't a clue

[winchester_royal]

You are thoroughly tiresome.

Like most fans on here, I choose to form my opinions based on what I see, and the criteria that I have in my mind for what makes a good striker. Church is slow, weak, and not very skilful. He has some redeeming features, for example his movement is decent and he works hard, but it's not enough. Especially for a team with premiership aspirations.

And I think Brian agrees with me, which is why he was looking to sign CMS a couple of weeks ago, and if rumours are to be believed offered Church in part exchange.

Feel free to disagree with me Snowball, and I would be interested in hearing your own opinions about Church, but don't resort to the 'well Brian plays him so he must be good' line of debate...

[melonhead]

he is right about all those good players being utterly panned on here though

[Ruud Van Kitson]

Snowball spot on.

Church is good enough at this level. Has had his chance and not done as well as some may have liked, but he has still scored some valuable goals this season and last. If McDermott sees the potential in him, I'm more than happy to sit tight. Just wish the pr1ck behind me in the west stand and all the other armchair managers would shut up and back him.

[West Stand Man]

You are thoroughly tiresome.

Like most fans on here, I choose to form my opinions based on what I see, and the criteria that I have in my mind for what makes a good striker. Church is slow, weak, and not very skilful. He has some redeeming features, for example his movement is decent and he works hard, but it's not enough. Especially for a team with premiership aspirations.

And I think Brian agrees with me, which is why he was looking to sign CMS a couple of weeks ago, and if rumours are to be believed offered Church in part exchange.

Feel free to disagree with me Snowball, and I would be interested in hearing your own opinions about Church, but don't resort to the 'well Brian plays him so he must be good' line of debate...

How about a sensible rephrase then


"Brian plays him, so he obviously thinks he is good enough"

link that to

" Brian has led this team to a pretty good standing in the league"

[winchester_royal]

Well of course, every player will get panned by a few. I would say that most of the players he named were criticised only by an overwhelming minority however.

Different fans are allowed different views. Football would be a horrendously boring past-time if everyone had to agree with the club and each other.