Long - Time to go.

[Wimb]

While I wait with baited breath.....

What does Gylfi/the position he played, how many chances he had or how much he's worth have to do with Shane Long? You haven't answered my question, you just tried to start a debate and then threw in a stat about how many chances Gylfi scores and stated your belief he was a striker.... what does that have to do with my analysis of how many goals Shane Long scores from open play?

You're right the record books do just show total goals and that is why it's right to break down stats further if you are trying to prove/disprove a point. I don't exactly care how many 'top-scorers were top scorers because they took penalties' that's a seperate argument and once again gets away from the issue that I was bringing forward about whether Shane Long is currently or will in the future score enough from open play.

[Snowball]

Remember that Gylfi is a stand-out truly awesome player
possibly the best to have ever played for Reading
and was sold for 7 Million

Last Season Gylfi played 38 (5) games, exactly 1.5 times as much as Long's 24 (12) = 26

Gylfi scored 12 goals from open play (1 of which was against League 2 Burton, and one v Burnley)

Long scored EIGHT goals in open play 2/3 of 12 in 2/3 of the games.

That is he EXACTLY MATCHED Gylfi's open-play goals "per game". All Long's goals were against Championship sides with 3 against Premiership sides. And of course he won the penalty that Gylfi scored at Anfield.

38 (05) = 39 games for 12 Open Play Goals = 1 Open Play Goal every 3.25 Games GYLFI
24 (12) = 26 games for 08 Open Play Goals = 1 Open Play Goal every 3.25 Games LONG

RFC played 54 games last season. Long played 26 "games".

He was out through injuries and suspensions, and 8 open-play goals equates, obviously, to 16 + 2 pens if he played a full season's games like Harte (60 games 18 goals)

[Wimb]

Remember that Gylfi is a stand-out truly awesome player
possibly the best to have ever played for Reading
and was sold for 7 Million

Last Season Gylfi played 38 (5) games, exactly 1.5 times as much as Long's 24 (12) = 26

Gylfi scored 12 goals from open play (1 of which was against League 2 Burton, and one v Burnley)

Long scored EIGHT goals in open play 2/3 of 12 in 2/3 of the games.

That is he EXACTLY MATCHED Gylfi's open-play goals "per game". All Long's goals were against Championship sides with 3 against Premiership sides. And of course he won the penalty that Gylfi scored at Anfield.

38 (05) = 39 games for 12 Open Play Goals = 1 Open Play Goal every 3.25 Games GYLFI
24 (12) = 26 games for 08 Open Play Goals = 1 Open Play Goal every 3.25 Games LONG

RFC played 54 games last season. Long played 26 "games".

He was out through injuries and suspensions, and 8 open-play goals equates, obviously, to 16 + 2 pens if he played a full season's games like Harte (60 games 18 goals)

THAT'S your cracker?

What exactly does that prove about Shane Long's goal ratio in the Championship Snowball? that it's comparable to Sigurdsson? You should probably post that in the 'Gylfi should be our lone striker thread'...... oh wait.

[Snowball]

What does Gylfi/the position he played, how many chances he had or how much he's worth have to do with Shane Long?

Gylfi is very relevant because he was our top-scorer last year and has a clear valuation. ie He is a top-end Bundesliga Player who we sold for 7 Million, could easily play in the top six of the English Premiership.

I have shown that over a whole season, Long had a very respectable open-play goals total which exactly matches our best player, one who we sold for 7 Million.

Not saying Long would have scored all Gylfi's pens, but he has a very good penalty record (and Gylfi missed one last season)... But look at what happens if Long takes those pens and scores!

14 Goals Long
15 Goals Long (if he gets the one that Gylfi missed)
15 Goals Gylfi


Remember that Gylfi compared to Long, first thing is Gylfi played 1.5 times as much

Take away the penalties and goal-wise they are not so different

[Wimb]

What does Gylfi/the position he played, how many chances he had or how much he's worth have to do with Shane Long?

Gylfi is very relevant because he was our top-scorer last year and has a clear valuation. ie He is a top-end Bundesliga Player who we sold for 7 Million, could easily play in the top six of the English Premiership.

I have shown that over a whole season, Long had a very respectable open-play goals total which exactly matches our best player, one who we sold for 7 Million.

Not saying Long would have scored all Gylfi's pens, but he has a very good penalty record (and Gylfi missed one last season)... But look at what happens if Long takes those pens and scores!

14 Goals Long
15 Goals Long (if he gets the one that Gylfi missed)
15 Goals Gylfi


Remember that Gylfi compared to Long, first thing is Gylfi played 1.5 times as much

Take away the penalties and goal-wise they are not so different

Snowball

You've absolutely lost the plot haven't you?

Did the statistic I brought show that Long is scoring less then a goal every 4 games as a striker in open play, in games in the Championship?

If you accept the stat is correct, does it not support the simple notion, separate of all other debates, that Shane Long does not have a very good goals to game ratio in this league in open play.

Simple answer please.

[Snowball]

So now you want to remove Cup goals?

Gylfi scored in open play in the cup v Burton
Gylfi scored in open play in the cup v Burnley
Gylfi scored in open play in the cup v WBA
Gylfi scored a penalty at Liverpool

So now Gyfli only managed NINE Championship goals in open play

Shane had 5 goals in the championship in open play

32 (05) = 32.8 games for 9 open play goals, 1 open play goal every 3.64 games GYLFI
22 (09) = 23.5 games for 5 open play goals, 1 open play goal every 4.70 games LONG

Feel better now? Of COURSE Shane Long should not be judged for his brilliant goals versus Aston Villa and Liverpool. They show he can score open-play goals against Premiership opposition, so let's remove them.

[Snowball]

Did the statistic I brought show that Long is scoring less then a goal every 4 games as a striker in open play, in games in the Championship?

If you accept the stat is correct, does it not support the simple notion, separate of all other debates, that Shane Long does not have a very good goals to game ratio in this league in open play.

Simple answer please.

The simple answer is. What are the open play stats for most players in this league, and for Hunt, Church in particular?

And you set out a red herring in the first place, arguing that penalties and free-kicks do not count.

[Snowball]

In our second Premiership season Kevin Doyle played 34 (2) = 34.33 league games for 6 goals.

He scored in just 5 of those games (one brace)

Two goals were headers direct from a corner, one a header direct from a Free-Kick

So in a whole season where he started in all but 4 games, and was sub in 2 others
he managed just 3 goals in open play. 1 open play goal every 11.44 games

Even if you "gift" Doyle the other three goals and pretend they are open play he only comes out with a goal every 5.72 games. THIS IS A QUALITY PLAYER WHO WE SOLD FOR 6.5 MILLION.


Just cos the Premiership is tough?

Long started just 7 (22) = 10.67 games

He scored v Newcastle in open play, scored v Portsmouth in open play, he scored against Man City in open play. That's one open play goal every 3.55 games, better than 5.72 and a whole lot better than 11.44

[Wimb]

What on earth does Kevin Doyle in the Premier League two seasons ago have to do with how good Shane Long is now, or going forward? for the last time I'm not concerned with players who are no longer with the club, how much they are worth or how they did in a Reading shirt or otherwise. I'm worried right now with the lone striker playing in a 4-5-1 and his lack of goals from open play.

But for the record...

In the Championship since 2008/2009

Simon Church - Apps: 26 (23) Goals from open play 13. (If we take 6 subs as 1 full appearance as I did with Shane Long)

Apps: 30 - goals from open play 13 = 1 goal per 2.3 games.

To refresh your memory....

Shane Long - Apps: 54 - goals from open play 13 = 1 goal from open play every 4.15 games.

[Hugo Boss]

Shane LOLong.

Gets taken off, everything completely changes and we end up winning. His replacements look hungry with one getting a goal. Surprise, surprise.

F*ck off Long.

[handbags_harris]

Wouldn't it be brilliant to see Snowball attempt to be a football manager for any cluband end up playing, say, Carlton Palmer instead of Roy Keane, or Paul Bodin instead of Nicky Shorey, because their positional statistics were better

N.B. These are four purely random names plucked from the air. I have absolutely no idea what their positional statistics are. The point remains the same though.

[Stranded]

Wouldn't it be brilliant to see Snowball attempt to be a football manager for any cluband end up playing, say, Carlton Palmer instead of Roy Keane, or Paul Bodin instead of Nicky Shorey, because their positional statistics were better

N.B. These are four purely random names plucked from the air. I have absolutely no idea what their positional statistics are. The point remains the same though.

Very funny Simpsons recently based on this (well a pisstake of Moneyball). Lisa takes a team to the championship by dropping the best player (Bart) as he disobeys statistics to win a game.

[floyd__streete]

Shane LOLong.

Gets taken off, everything completely changes and we end up winning. His replacements look hungry with one getting a goal. Surprise, surprise.

F*ck off Long.

You forgot to mention that the other replacement set up the first goal of the comeback with a quite brilliant cross, the likes of which I cannot recall Long coming even remotely close to replicating. Otherwise a massive +1 from me. Plain-speaking Hugo > a few dozen pages of skewed statistical guff which mean nothing in the light of another touch-heavy chance-missing performance from LOLong.

What I would like to see though is some stats showing any other Championship strikers with as many minutes on the pitch as LOLong this season who have also managed ZERO poxy goals from open play.

[Snowball]

What on earth does Kevin Doyle in the Premier League two seasons ago have to do with how good Shane Long is now, or going forward? for the last time I'm not concerned with players who are no longer with the club, how much they are worth or how they did in a Reading shirt or otherwise. I'm worried right now with the lone striker playing in a 4-5-1 and his lack of goals from open play.

But for the record... In the Championship since 2008/2009

Simon Church - Apps: 26 (23) Goals from open play 13. (If we take 6 subs as 1 full appearance as I did with Shane Long)

Apps: 30 - goals from open play 13 = 1 goal per 2.3 games.

Ah, but Wim, remember that it's "unfair" to put in goals as a sub, innit? That's why Shane 05-08 was disallowed any credit. I've looked at Church and STARTING, in the league he's had FIVE goals from open play. I can name and date the matches. He's had one more in the cup, but if invoke the cup games, someone will say, "This is about the Championship"

Simon Church has scored five league goals in open play, AS A STARTER, IN HIS CAREER.

[Snowball]

Shane LOLong.

Gets taken off, everything completely changes and we end up winning. His replacements look hungry with one getting a goal. Surprise, surprise.

F*ck off Long.

and changing from 451 to 442 HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

[andrew1957]

Shane LOLong.

Gets taken off, everything completely changes and we end up winning. His replacements look hungry with one getting a goal. Surprise, surprise.

F*ck off Long.

and changing from 451 to 442 HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

You are wasting your time Snowball. I too like Long but the Long haters will not be happy until a/ he leaves or b/ he scores a hat trick every time he plays.

What few on here seem to realise is that the average Championship striker only has between 2-5 goals so far this season. 7 or 8 put you amongst the top few. I doubt more than 1 or 2 will achieve 20 goals in 46 games - much as with the last several seasons.

If Long can notch up 10 league goals by season end (which I think he can) he will be as prolific as most strikers in this division.

[Wimb]

What on earth does Kevin Doyle in the Premier League two seasons ago have to do with how good Shane Long is now, or going forward? for the last time I'm not concerned with players who are no longer with the club, how much they are worth or how they did in a Reading shirt or otherwise. I'm worried right now with the lone striker playing in a 4-5-1 and his lack of goals from open play.

But for the record... In the Championship since 2008/2009

Simon Church - Apps: 26 (23) Goals from open play 13. (If we take 6 subs as 1 full appearance as I did with Shane Long)

Apps: 30 - goals from open play 13 = 1 goal per 2.3 games.

Ah, but Wim, remember that it's "unfair" to put in goals as a sub, innit? That's why Shane 05-08 was disallowed any credit. I've looked at Church and STARTING, in the league he's had FIVE goals from open play. I can name and date the matches. He's had one more in the cup, but if invoke the cup games, someone will say, "This is about the Championship"

Simon Church has scored five league goals in open play, AS A STARTER, IN HIS CAREER.

Where did I say goals from sub were unfair? I added them to Long's tally after all what's your point Snowball?

You basically couldn't get past my stat so tried to change the rules again, SHOCKER

[Hoop Blah]

You are wasting your time Snowball. I too like Long but the Long haters will not be happy until a/ he leaves or b/ he scores a hat trick every time he plays.

What few on here seem to realise is that the average Championship striker only has between 2-5 goals so far this season. 7 or 8 put you amongst the top few. I doubt more than 1 or 2 will achieve 20 goals in 46 games - much as with the last several seasons.

If Long can notch up 10 league goals by season end (which I think he can) he will be as prolific as most strikers in this division.

This is true, but the problem is that we at least need a goal threat and Long isn't really offering that at the moment.

I don't really like or rate Long. I think we'd be a better side if we went out and got a better player in and I don't believe McDermott can't find a better forward than the ones we have. Most importantly I think we need something different to our current options as all 3 forwards are too alike.

For me it's not a case of Long v Church v Hunt but what we can do to make us a better side because I believe we should always be looking to improve where possible.

[andrew1957]

The facts - just for the record I thought it would be interesting to list the top 2 scorers (irrespective of the position they play) for each Championship club so far this season. RFC are pretty average on the list and it just goes to show how few 20 goal a season strikers there are at this level.

Barnsley 5 & 3
Bristol 3 & 3
Burnley 8 & 5
Cardiff 10 & 4
Coventry 4 & 3
Palace 4 & 2
Derby 7 & 3
Donny 6 & 5
Hull 3 & 2
Ipswich 5 & 2
Leeds 6 & 5
Leicester 5 & 2
Boro 4 & 2
Millwall 5 & 3
Norwich 4 & 4
Forest 7 & 4
Pompey 5 & 4
Preston 7 & 4
QPR 8 & 5
Reading 4 & 3
Scunny 4 & 3
Sheffield 2 & 2
Swansea 7 & 4
Watford 6 & 6

Only 19 players have scored 5 goals or more so far this season - and we are nearly a third of the way through. Still keep on criiicising Long - after all why let the facts get in the way!

[Vision]

The facts - just for the record I thought it would be interesting to list the top 2 scorers (irrespective of the position they play) for each Championship club so far this season. RFC are pretty average on the list and it just goes to show how few 20 goal a season strikers there are at this level.

Barnsley 5 & 3
Bristol 3 & 3
Burnley 8 & 5
Cardiff 10 & 4
Coventry 4 & 3
Palace 4 & 2
Derby 7 & 3
Donny 6 & 5
Hull 3 & 2
Ipswich 5 & 2
Leeds 6 & 5
Leicester 5 & 2
Boro 4 & 2
Millwall 5 & 3
Norwich 4 & 4
Forest 7 & 4
Pompey 5 & 4
Preston 7 & 4
QPR 8 & 5
Reading 4 & 3
Scunny 4 & 3
Sheffield 2 & 2
Swansea 7 & 4
Watford 6 & 6

Only 19 players have scored 5 goals or more so far this season - and we are nearly a third of the way through. Still keep on criiicising Long - after all why let the facts get in the way!

Depends on your aspiration surely. If we're content to just be average then a list of numbers that shows us such is probably ok. If we're looking to make the play-offs then surely being "average" isnt good enough. I'm assuming you're still coming from the perspective of thinking we'll get relegated in which case you may have a point that "average" might be what we're looking for.

It should be pointed out that our 4 & 3 figures on this list are for Kebe and Mills so I'm not entiely sure what they have to do with Shane Long. If there are 19 players who already have 5 and Long only has 2 then how many players have more goals than him. All your quoted "facts" tell us is that there are at least 40 players in this division who have scored more goals than Long this season. Given that you've said if he gets 10 he will score more than most strikers in this division it doesn't exactly push home that point does it?

I think you're right about people's obsession with a 20 goal a season man being a bit fanciful as there are usually only a handful at best in any given season. However not many sides will have much of a season if they're happy for their main striker to be outscored by at least 2 players from the majority of the teams in the division.